Australian Brahmic Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sylvester
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by Sylvester »

Thank you, piotr. :anjali:

Leaves one to wonder why there is this irrational fear that "Cessation of perception and feeling" leads to rebirth as an asaññasatta.
Nyana
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Leaves one to wonder why there is this irrational fear that "Cessation of perception and feeling" leads to rebirth as an asaññasatta.
Not irrational at all. Non-apperceptive absorptions are states wherein there is no possibility of development. If one isn't already at a very advanced stage then by entering non-apperceptive absorptions one is arresting any possibility of development. Thus, it is very prudent to heed the commentarial tradition's advice and extinguish as many levels of fetters as possible before engaging in any non-apperceptive samādhi.

All the best,

Geoff
Sylvester
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by Sylvester »

As far as I can tell from Ajahn Brahm's dessanas and published works, the only "fully" non-apperceptive absorption that he mentions is Nirodha-Samapatti. And that's praised in the suttas, in contrast to the Commentarial admonitions that it leads to an asaññasatta rebirth.

All the other absorptions that he teaches are strictly in line with Anupubbanirodha schema from the suttas.

I wonder how the accusation has surreptitiously evolved from attacking Ajahn Brahm's kāmasaññanirodha teaching of 1st Jhana (as uncanonical) to become an insinuation that he teaches sabbasaññanirodha for the jhanas.

Most slippery... :juggling:
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piotr
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by piotr »

Hi,

According to Visudhimagga (?) one can attain cessation of perception and feeling only after attaining anāgāmī or arahatta. If it's true then one won't be reborn as asaññisatta.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... apatti.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
Sylvester
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks piotr.

I would agree with the Vsm's logic, if it applied the suttanta understanding of Jhana.

Unfortunately, I distinctly remember (either in the Vsm or a translation of a Commentary) that the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttara-lokiya was applied to Nirodha Samapatti as well. The text was unequivocal in declaring that lokiya Nirodha Samapatti leads to rebirth as an asaññisatta.
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piotr
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by piotr »

Hi,
Sylvester wrote:Unfortunately, I distinctly remember (either in the Vsm or a translation of a Commentary) that the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttara-lokiya was applied to Nirodha Samapatti as well.
Strange because it seems to me, if I get it right, it would be in conflict with assumption that nirodha-samāpatti can be attained only by anāgāmins and arahants.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
rowyourboat
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by rowyourboat »

piotr wrote:Hi,
Sylvester wrote:Unfortunately, I distinctly remember (either in the Vsm or a translation of a Commentary) that the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttara-lokiya was applied to Nirodha Samapatti as well.
Strange because it seems to me, if I get it right, it would be in conflict with assumption that nirodha-samāpatti can be attained only by anāgāmins and arahants.
Indeed. Nirodhasamapatti, just because of its emptiness, should be not be confused with asanna states (which are also empty). The whole point -that only anagamins and arahanths who have access to the 8th jhana can attain it is that their fetters have been weakened through a vipassana process- hence thereby making nirodhasamapatti- a samatha process- go where it wasn't able to go before.

The Buddha's truck with his early teachers Alarakalama and Uddakaramaputta was that, even after they taught him the 8th jhana of neither-perception nor non-perception, was that that was not full cessation.

Now I can understand Ajhan Brahm's stance that when in any jhana, there is no craving (Because it is beyond the kamavacara sphere)- nor was there any craving in the 8th jhana- but the Buddha was not satisfied as it was not full cessation:

"In this way did Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, place me in the position of teacher and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In some way you could even say that nirodhasamapatti is a fusion between samatha and vipassana, but that would be a step too far. Maybe you could call it a fusion of the highest results of both samatha and vipassana. The inadequacy of that would be that there is still an arahanth state to be gained for the anagamin in nirodhasamapatti- maybe the best definition is that it is simply a state of concentration (samadhi) reached where full cessation (a kind of nibbana?) is experienced.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Nyana
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:maybe the best definition is that it is simply a state of concentration (samadhi) reached where full cessation (a kind of nibbana?) is experienced.
I think this is accurate.

All the best,

Geoff
Seymour
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Post by Seymour »

appicchato wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:32 am Ajahn Brahm hasn't been expelled from anything other than a group of Thai monks that call some shots in Thailand, and with Thai laypeople who follow those monks living abroad...he is, and will be fine (with more than 35 years in the robes, as well as a sheepskin, I'd say he's got a pretty good handle on (most all) matters...once again, if people don't agree with the way other people see matters, why muddy the water?...move on in the direction of those that share your beliefs...

Be well...
Sadhu. Hello new friend. Your advise for us, that I certainly could take heed in, especially being new to this forum and forums in general, is like music to the ears. It's a Dog-eat-dog world out there and if you're not careful you'll get sucked right into it. I feel certain that practicing this,what you have spoken, is indeed practicing Dhamma. Sadhu.
Simple living high thinking.
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