Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:22 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone who has spent any time with real teachers seriously believe that they are all that confused?


Hi Mike,


it's not, that anyone is confused.

The mistake of non-relaxing the tensions arisen from craving
after letting go of the distraction and returning to the object of meditation
can lead you into very deep concentrated states which can be very pleasant.
But no hindrances and nothing at all shows up into mind in that states
so one won't learn how mind actually works.

Simply:
Without relaxing the tension and tightness in body and mind after letting go of the distraction
you can reach deep meditative states without knowing that they are the wrong ones.

The Buddha had been at those with his first two meditation teacher teaching him brahmin meditation.
And he dismissed that being non-sufficient.


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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby Alex123 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:45 pm

mirco wrote:Simply:
Without relaxing the tension and tightness in body and mind after letting go of the distraction
you can reach deep meditative states without knowing that they are the wrong ones.


One can take tranquillizers and become super relaxed without any tension or tightness. But that doesn't make one become Awakened.

Neither can bare (as in: thoughtless & conceptless) observation produce wisdom. Worms are not awakened, even though they can't think or form wrong concepts.

I believe in wisdom that uproots all craving (and whatever stands behind it and whatever it manifests as).
"dust to dust...."
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:07 pm

mirco wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone who has spent any time with real teachers seriously believe that they are all that confused?

Hi Mike,

it's not, that anyone is confused.

Good to hear it. So why then do some teachers, and even some students, insist that only they know how to practise correctly? See my comment here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7416&p=119031#p119031 for an expansion why I don't take comments to that effect by Bhante Vimalaramsi (or anyone else) too seriously.

:anjali:
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:11 pm

Alex123 wrote:
mirco wrote:Simply: Without relaxing the tension and tightness in body and mind after letting go of the distraction
you can reach deep meditative states without knowing that they are the wrong ones.


One can take tranquillizers and become super relaxed without any tension or tightness. But that doesn't make one become Awakened.
Neither can bare (as in: thoughtless & conceptless) observation produce wisdom. Worms are not awakened, even though they can't think or form wrong concepts.


Hi Alex,

but we are talking about Buddhist meditation. And that is to stay with your attention with the object of meditation.
Not about taking drugs.

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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:14 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
mirco wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone who has spent any time with real teachers seriously believe that they are all that confused?

Hi Mike, it's not, that anyone is confused.
Good to hear it. So why then do some teachers, and even some students, insist that only they know how to practise correctly? See my comment here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 31#p119031 for an expansion why I don't take comments to that effect by Bhante Vimalaramsi (or anyone else) too seriously.


Hi Mike,

why do they insist? Maybe, because they do not know any better?

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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby vidar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:44 pm

mirco wrote:
adeh wrote:It's interesting to take into account that Bhante Vimalaramsi's Abhidhamma teacher-and preceptor I think, but don't quote me on that-was the Ven. Sayadaw Silananda, a well known Bhikkhu who had a problem with his blood pressure and only recently passed away in 2005. The centre of his teaching was actually the Visuddhimagga, and he gave many courses and discourses based on the same. I have been told that every time Ven. Vimalaramsi turned up and started explaining his theories about Buddhaghosa, the Venerable Sayadaws blood pressure went through the roof.

Hi,

yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^

Best Regards ツ Mirco


And can you give us a reference of this convenient story?, specially the part when Venerable U Silananda says that the method he has been teaching (the Mahasi method) is the incorrect way.
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:03 am

vidar wrote:
mirco wrote:yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^ Best Regards ツ Mirco

And can you give us a reference of this convenient story?, specially the part when Venerable U Silananda says that the method he has been teaching (the Mahasi method) is the incorrect way.


Hi Vidar,


no, I can't. The Venerable Vimalaramsi himself was telling this story. It can be found somewhere in the talk archives, I believe.
Ask him, if you like: here


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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:43 am

vidar wrote:
mirco wrote:
adeh wrote:It's interesting to take into account that Bhante Vimalaramsi's Abhidhamma teacher-and preceptor I think, but don't quote me on that-was the Ven. Sayadaw Silananda, a well known Bhikkhu who had a problem with his blood pressure and only recently passed away in 2005. The centre of his teaching was actually the Visuddhimagga, and he gave many courses and discourses based on the same. I have been told that every time Ven. Vimalaramsi turned up and started explaining his theories about Buddhaghosa, the Venerable Sayadaws blood pressure went through the roof.

Hi,

yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^

Best Regards ツ Mirco


And can you give us a reference of this convenient story?, specially the part when Venerable U Silananda says that the method he has been teaching (the Mahasi method) is the incorrect way.
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby adeh » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:03 pm

vidar wrote:
mirco wrote:
adeh wrote:It's interesting to take into account that Bhante Vimalaramsi's Abhidhamma teacher-and preceptor I think, but don't quote me on that-was the Ven. Sayadaw Silananda, a well known Bhikkhu who had a problem with his blood pressure and only recently passed away in 2005. The centre of his teaching was actually the Visuddhimagga, and he gave many courses and discourses based on the same. I have been told that every time Ven. Vimalaramsi turned up and started explaining his theories about Buddhaghosa, the Venerable Sayadaws blood pressure went through the roof.

Hi,

yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^

Best Regards ツ Mirco




I never met the Ven. Sayadaw but from what I have heard about him from many people I know here and in the U.S. who did know him personally, I would have to say that I seriously doubt the truth of this story.
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby vidar » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:47 pm

This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.


Certainly these are nonsense stories :(
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:34 pm

vidar wrote:
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.


Certainly these are nonsense stories :(

Dhamma Greetings,


Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?


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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:05 pm

mirco wrote:
vidar wrote:
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.


Certainly these are nonsense stories :(

Dhamma Greetings,


Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?


Be Well, Mirco :-)
Good question. Why would he so obviously distort the Buddhaghosa story?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby phil » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:05 am

Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question. And the video where he claims he can cure AIDS is enough evidence to dismiss that comment, isn't it? On the other hand, maybe Sayadaw U Silananda had enough equanimity to understand that the best way to get rid of the misguided venerable badgering him was to give him a compliment to get him out the door, but unlikely I guess...

BTW, speaking of Sayadaw U Silananda, if anyone would like a great source for Pali study, his bilingual recitation of the parittas is fantastic.

http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm

Scan down for "paritta chanting, Burmese style."
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby legolas » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:26 am

phil wrote:Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question......................

......."


I came across the following "new age therapy" .................

'He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html


and...............

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html#bathman
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby mirco » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:21 am

:goodpost:
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby phil » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:33 am

legolas wrote:
phil wrote:Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question......................

......."


I came across the following "new age therapy" .................

'He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html


and...............

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html#bathman


Hi

Well, not the correct thread to discuss whether my description of what I remember from Ven Vimalaramsi's teaching is in line with a correct understanding of development of jhanas.

In any case, I'm still amazed that he would say what he did about Sayadaw U Silananda. Even on the incredible assumption that it were true, why didn't hiri/otappa and just plain modesty prevent him from declaring it in publlic? Of course anyone who is not yet an Ariyan can be subject to occasions of shameless behaviour, perhaps one struck him as he typed or spoke or however he communicated his words about Sayadaw U SIlananda. (Perhaps one struck me now as I typed, let's hope not.)
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby pilgrim » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:53 pm

mirco wrote:
vidar wrote:
This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.


Certainly these are nonsense stories :(

Dhamma Greetings,

Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?

Be Well, Mirco :-)

I won't say he's a liar but it seems evident that he's quite liberal with facts... I quote this from his website. http://www.dhammasukha.org/About/teacher_background.htm

"I was asked to join the largest Theravadan monastery in Malaysia, which happened to be a Sri Lankan monastery. There, I taught meditation and gave Dhamma talks to many people. Sometimes as many as 500 people would attend these talks."

Travelling monks can just show up at this temple and stay. It's no big deal. Although 500 seems like an unusually large number, it is quite common for crowds of more than a hundred to attend talks when there are foreign speakers

"For about three years, I stayed at the Theravadan temple in Malaysia, and still have over 1000 Malaysian students in varying degrees of deep meditation.".

If there are 1000 students in Malaysia in varying degrees of deep meditation, they must have attained the power of invisibility . :jumping:
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby robertk » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:04 am

I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:21 am

robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga

Postby robertk » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:I have discussed Dhamma with Vimalaramsi at length and while I dont agree with many of his points it ia clear he is sincere and has studied a great deal.

It is very very unlikely that he is not properly ordained- considering how long he has been in robes.
Length of time in the robes is not a guarantee. Sincere? Studied a great deal? Probably, but there are some serious issues in how he teaches -- and in what he claims about himself -- that raise serious questions.
I think Vimalarsmsi has the right , as does anyone, to critique aspects of teachings he doesn't agree with.
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