pilgrim wrote:The insistence that we all adhere to the good book may be applicable if Buddhism is a religion of faith. But it is not. We use the texts not as an item of faith but as a manual for our application.
Ñāṇa wrote:If we approach the Abhidhammapiṭaka as a prescriptive and descriptive aid to help clarify practice and textual interpretation of suttas, and not as a closed system of ultimate truth which marginalizes the suttas as being of lesser importance, then this combination of canonical Vinayapiṭaka, Suttapiṭaka, and Abhidhammapiṭaka offers us a very workable and valuable set of teachings to guide our practice.
Vossaga wrote:For example, if one follows only the suttas, what school or designation is that?
Sylvester wrote:Hmm, why draw the line artificially at the Psm and Abhidhamma?
Sylvester wrote:What about the Classical Mahaviharins who insist that the Vsm and the Commentaries and Tikas should also be included in received Theravada?
Sylvester wrote:What about the other camp who argues that "Theravada" is simply a Vinaya ordination lineage, and not a doctrinal one?
Sylvester wrote:I shudder to think that Ajahn Chah and Ven Nanananda have fallen between the cracks, based on this definition.
Vossaga wrote:Who or what exactly are the 'Elders' in Theravada? Are they the Buddha's arahant disciples, who followed & taught the Dhamma in the suttas? Or are they those who invented Abhidhamma?
Vossaga wrote:For example, if one follows only the suttas, what school or designation is that?
Sylvester wrote:If I grant that both frameworks have legitimacy, I can see no valid reason to artificially draw a line to keep out the text-critical approach which focusses on a limited body of the canon, whether or not the exegetical material are consulted and discussed. I don't think you would disagree on this, I hope.
Ñāṇa wrote:I guess if one only accepts the suttas then they are some sort of modern Pāḷi suttantika.
'suttantika' - one who knew precisely the Dialogues by heart.
Vardali wrote:What purpose is served here?
Dmytro wrote:The historical dogmatics in Brahmavamso's group is handled by Sujato.
Sujato about preferring the Sarvastivada, and Mula-Sarvastivada in particular:
"Sometimes i think it's just that Sarv is a bit stale and
ordinary and Mula-S is a sexier theory! Of course, it is not at all
unlikely that within one school there may be several different
versions of the canon. After all, even within the arch-orthodox
Theravadins the Burmese Tipitaka today differs substantially from
the Sinhalese and Thai. Even within the four Nikayas we witness the
movement of the Maha Satipatthana Sutta from the Digha to the
Majjhima, probably in the fifth (Burmese) council."
"So in such cases, the Chinese translations are just as accurate and authoritative as the Pali, and sometimes may even be more reliable."
http://sites.google.com/site/santipada/ ... allytaught
Sujato on inauthenticity of Pali Satipatthana sutta, in comparison with Chinese versions and Mahayana sutras:
"These philosophical suppositions, inherited from the tradition and largely unexamined, underlie and inform the major schools of contemporary Theravāda meditation. Meditators practice precisely in order to see the elements of ‘ultimate reality’. The prime source text for this approach is the ‘Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta’, which we suggest would be better called the ‘Piltdown Sutta’. Is it too much to hope that the revelation that this is one of the latest and least authentic of all the texts in the Nikāyas will cause such meditation schools to question their own assumptions and methods?"
Sujato on Theravadin Abhidhamma:
"I suggest that the abhidhamma is most profitably considered, not as a psychology or as a philosophy, but as a mystical cult."
"It's time"by Sujato:
"It’s time. We need a new paradigm. Buddhism is suffering from schizophrenia; there is a split in consciousness between the historical and the mythic conceptions of the origin of the Dhamma. For 2500 years Buddhism has been constantly changing, adapting, evolving; yet the myths of the schools insist that the Dhamma remains the same. All existing schools of Buddhism justify their idiosyncratic doctrines mythologically; this is what all religions do. Thus the Theravada insists that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha in Tavatimsa heaven during his seventh rains retreat. The Mahayana claims that the Mahayana sutras were written down in the time of the Buddha, preserved in the dragon world under the sea, then retreived by Nagarjuna 500 years later. Zen claims authority from an esoteric oral transmission outside the scriptures descended from Maha Kassapa, symbolized by the smile of Maha Kassapa when the Buddha held up a lotus. All of these are myths, and do not deserve serious consideration as explanations of historical truth. Their purpose, as myths, is not to elucidate facts, but to authorize religious convictions."
Still, to perceive, for example, Analayo as a monastic, I need a clarification of his lineage and identity.
My going forth etc. is a little complex. I originally went forth in 1990 in Thailand in a monastery near Huahin (after an inspiring meditation retreat at Wat Suan Mokh, the monastery of Ajahn Buddhadāsa). This was, however, originally only planned to be for the vassa, which I wanted to spend meditating in a cave close by the seaside. I stayed on in robes for two years, in the end, since I found it was the most meaningful thing to do. However, trying to keep the rules strictly combined with my German perfectionism had created some problems in my mind (stiffness, arrogance towards those who are less strict etc.). I anyway had to go back to Germany to settle things, since originally I had not left with the idea of living in Asia, so I went down to anagārika, did what I had to do in Germany, and in 1994 came to Sri Lanka, where in 1995 I took pabbajā again, under Ven. Balangoda Ananda Maitreya.
“My main reference point for the subsequent period was Bhikkhu Bodhi, whom I consider as my teacher, as he guided me in Pāli etc. and we were throughout in regular contact. In order to keep out of dāna obligations and other things, and also out of my earlier experience with the rules of higher ordination, I stayed samaṇera for 12 years. Thus it was only in 2007, after repeatedly being urged to do so by Bhikkhu Bodhi, that I took higher ordination, in the Swejin Nikāya, with Ven. Pemasiri of Sumathipala Aranya as my monastic teacher.”
vidar wrote:What do you mean with a clarification o his lineage and identity?. He recieved his Upasampada in the Sri Lankan Shwegyin Nikaya (and the Shwegyin Nikaya is part of the Amarapura Nikaya lineage) with the Venerable Phemasiri Thera as his monastic teacher:
Sylvester wrote:Brahmavamso conflates "Nirodha" as the epithet of Nibbana with Nirodha-samapatti:
I'm not sure if the error was Ajahn Brahm's or yours, since you seem to have mistaken his statements about "nirodha" with Nirodha-samapatti. The contexts of his statements should be amply clear that he was speaking of the gradual cessation of contact with the kama (pl), of sankhapa, of the different types of vedana etc in each stage of progression through the Jhanas.
But in any event, if Nirodha-samapatti is nothing more a synonym for sanna-vedayita-nirodha samapatti, I thought Ven Sariputta praised Nibbana because the cessation of feelings is pleasant?"I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The problem with the Mahavihara Buddhists is simply this - the Commentarial insistence on lokiya/lokuttara attainments empowers them to say that Nirodha-samapatti is also subject to the lokiya/lokuttara distinction. According to the Commentaries, lokiya Nirodha-samapatti leads to rebirth as an asanna brahma. This is not in line with the plain sutta presentation about the inevitable result of experiencing Nirodha-samapatti.
As for the attachment to Jhana, I think we've discussed the plain meaning of MN 44, versus the Commentarial exegesis.
However Brahmavamso clearly conflates this epithet of Nibbana with Nirodha-samapatti:
“Navayime, bhikkhave, anupubbanirodhā. Katame nava? Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti; dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vitakkavicārā niruddhā honti; tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa pīti niruddhā hoti; catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti; ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpasaññā niruddhā hoti; viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti; ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti; nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā niruddhā hoti; saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca niruddhā honti. Ime kho, bhikkhave, nava anupubbanirodhā”ti.
"Well spoken, monk, well spoken! While three feelings have been taught by me, the pleasant, the painful and the neutral, yet I have also said that whatever is felt is within suffering. This, however, was stated by me with reference to the impermanence of (all) conditioned phenomena. I have said it because conditioned phenomena are liable to destruction, to evanescence, to fading away, to cessation and to change. It is with reference to this that I have stated: 'Whatever is felt is within suffering.'
"I have further taught, monk, the gradual cessation of conditioned phenomena (anupubbasaṅkhārānaṃ nirodho). In him who has attained the first meditative absorption, speech has ceased. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking has ceased. Having attained the third absorption, joy has ceased. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation have ceased. Having attained the sphere of the infinity of space, perception of form has ceased. Having attained the sphere of the infinity of consciousness, the perception of the sphere of the infinity of space has ceased. Having attained the sphere of no-thingness, the perception of the sphere of infinity of consciousness has ceased. Having attained the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the perception of the sphere of no-thingness has ceased. Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased. In a taint-free monk greed has ceased, hatred has ceased, delusion has ceased.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#fn-3
"Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.
"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. (etc etc for the other attainments, before we reach Nirodha Samapatti
"Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?' So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation (So nirodhaṃ phusati). This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
Nirodha as an epithet of Nibbana is the cessation of suffering (dukkha-nirodha), the cessation of all defilements (sabba-kilesa-nirodha). This cessation of suffering does not require any shutting off of experience, but can be experienced in an awake and present state.
"I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain."
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated.
Sylvester wrote:Leaves one to wonder why there is this irrational fear that "Cessation of perception and feeling" leads to rebirth as an asaññasatta.
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