God!

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
mettatrader
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God!

Post by mettatrader »

I have been brought up as a Christian, however, recently I feel a very strong draw towards Buddhism, hence why I am reading lots of Buddhist books, and posting on this forum! If anything I feel like a "Christian Buddhist" but given that is probably not possible (or is it?!?!) can you help me reconcile the 'spiritual' questions below that I am encountering in considering the two faiths!

Everything I have read so far about Buddhism makes perfect sense, but I am a bit confused on the 'God' issue.

My understanding from some things I have read is that Buddhists deny the existance of God, but other Buddhist publications say that God is all around us (e.g. in a beautiful flower, in a nice view, in a thunderstorm, even in us!)

My question is, which of the above, (if either) is correct.

Also, if there is no God, who do you thank when you see a beautiful view or other pleasing event and just feel great to be alive, and so thankful for what you have - who do you pass the feeling of gratitude onto!? Finally, how do you deal with painful times, if there is no one to ask for help.

If any of you can assist, perhaps even those who have made the transition from one faith to another, I would love to know how you feel.


Thanks for answering these questions, I appreciate it!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: God!

Post by Ceisiwr »

My understanding from some things I have read is that Buddhists deny the existance of God, but other Buddhist publications say that God is all around us (e.g. in a beautiful flower, in a nice view, in a thunderstorm, even in us!)
The Buddha taught that phonemona have three "marks", they are impermanent, dukkha (suffering, stress, unsatisfactory) and anatta (not self). Any being that exists has these three marks. This would mean that any "God" would be impermanent, and so would be subject to death

However generally the idea of God, from what I understand of Buddha's teachings, is simply a view point that arises in the mind of a person due to clinging and is an out growth from the assumption that there is some kind of permanence in the world instead of impermanence


Also, if there is no God, who do you thank when you see a beautiful view or other pleasing event and just feel great to be alive, and so thankful for what you have - who do you pass the feeling of gratitude onto!?
No one
Finally, how do you deal with painful times, if there is no one to ask for help.
If one practices Dhamma then painful times can be dealt with easily, in essence the practice is about turning to inwards, not outwards
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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khlawng
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Re: God!

Post by khlawng »

Hello mettatrader,
mettatrader wrote: My understanding from some things I have read is that Buddhists deny the existance of God, but other Buddhist publications say that God is all around us (e.g. in a beautiful flower, in a nice view, in a thunderstorm, even in us!)

My question is, which of the above, (if either) is correct.
I am afraid neither is correct. Buddhism doesn't deny the existence of a God. In fact, base on the Suttas, there are deities, devas and God(s) existing in a number of realms. In particular, the Maha Brahma Realm where the most famous inhabitant is the Great Brahma, a deity whose delusion leads him to regard himself as the all-powerful, all-seeing creator of the universe. You can read more information about this here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... #bigbrahma

To say that god is around us in flowers, nice views etc. is also incorrect and I can't think of any reference in Buddhism that would actually state something like that. Just out of curiosity, where are you reading these?
mettatrader wrote:Also, if there is no God, who do you thank when you see a beautiful view or other pleasing event and just feel great to be alive, and so thankful for what you have - who do you pass the feeling of gratitude onto!? Finally, how do you deal with painful times, if there is no one to ask for help.
As such, since there is no one God that is responsible for the creation of beautiful views, there really is no one to thank for for feeling good or bad. In fact, the basis of what Buddhis teaching is to get us to understand that feelings, as part of the 5 clinging aggregates, leads to stress and if not abandon, birth and death and sorrow and lamentation. I think the best thing for you to do is to read the first discourse by the Buddha after he attained enlightenment. There are some very profound basic concepts in there and you should find it useful and insightful.

Hope that helps. :anjali:
rowyourboat
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Re: God!

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi mettatrader!

Buddhists dont place much emphasis on denying or proving the existence of God. God doesnt play a big role at all in this tradition- I call it a tradition because someone could argue that without a belief in a God, calling it a religion is incorrect.

However we do believe that purifying our minds is of utmost importance. If believing in God helps you with that, it might be helpful to have that belief (as mentioned above we believe a 'MahaBrahama' exists in a high 'heavenly' plane). If you find that your mind is purer without a belief in God, that is also another way forward.

We believe that Buddhism ('dharma') can be understood by those who are wise.. and wise to the ways of their own minds. Part of this is understanding what certain beliefs do to us- in terms of how it prompts us to act in the world at large. If a certain belief helps us to be kinder to other people then it sounds like a belief worth keeping- if it causes us to go into war with other people, perhaps it is better to be left behind.

I hope this is making some sense to you. :anjali:

with much metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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mikenz66
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Re: God!

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi MT,

Further to RYB's point:

Tolerance and Diversity by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists. These principles advocated by outside religious systems will also conduce to rebirth in the realms of bliss — the heavens and the divine abodes. Buddhism by no means claims to have unique access to these realms, but holds that the paths that lead to them have been articulated, with varying degrees of clarity, in many of the great spiritual traditions of humanity. While the Buddhist will disagree with the belief structures of other religions to the extent that they deviate from the Buddha's Dhamma, he will respect them to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
:anjali:
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Re: God!

Post by Taco »

mettatrader wrote:Also, if there is no God, who do you thank when you see a beautiful view or other pleasing event and just feel great to be alive, and so thankful for what you have - who do you pass the feeling of gratitude onto!?
Perhaps the pleasent experiences are a result of one's previous good kamma (i.e. intentional actions)?
Ledi Sayādaw wrote:Religions apart from Buddhism have only one refuge—that is, refuge in God. Whatever comes into existence and whatever is destroyed is therefore attributed to God.

I shall clarify this point. In religions such as Christianity and Islaṃ the bare meaning of refuge—in making good kamma—is not understood so that followers regard God as their only refuge. They assume that the appearance and disappearance of the world and of the beings on it is due to the power of God. So they believe that God saves those who have faith in him by means of his supernormal power. And by means of this power he can wash away all the sins and evils done by beings, giving them eternal happiness and eternal life after death. Thus the good and bad things experienced by beings depend on the will of God.

People like this disbelieve in kamma and do not think that it can be the cause of results. It is really very surprising that people who are making kamma all the time, in this way disregard their own actions. Kamma, as we have already said, means all intentional physical, verbal, and mental actions. Now all of these actions are done by people, whether Buddhist or otherwise, and some will be done by non-Buddhists in the worship of their religions, whatever forms it takes. So they make kamma by practising and undertaking such things as baptism, worship of God with body, speech and mind, obedience to his commandments, prostrations and offerings; all these things, as they are intentional, are kamma. Though these outsiders believe that God saves those who have faith in him and perform such actions (and does not save those who do not know of him or believe in him and who therefore do not do these things), really there is just the kamma made by those people who in time will receive its fruits, from their own hearts, not from God.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh245-u.html#IRightView" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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andre9999
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Re: God!

Post by andre9999 »

What is it about Christianity that has you looking elsewhere?
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Viscid
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Re: God!

Post by Viscid »

I've been reading the writings of Christian mystics, and their description of deep states in contemplative prayer sounds remarkably similar to that of deep states in meditation. The main difference being that the peace they experience is attributed to an external God rather than that which arises within themselves. This would suggest that regardless of one's view of God, one can practice with a great deal of success.
Last edited by Viscid on Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Ceisiwr
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Re: God!

Post by Ceisiwr »

Viscid wrote:I've been reading the writings of early Christian mystics, and their description of deep states in contemplative prayer sounds remarkably similar to that of deep states in meditation. The main difference being that the peace they experience is attributed to an external God rather than that which arises within themselves. This would suggest that regardless of one's view of God, one can practice with a great deal of success.


Sure, there were many in the Buddhas time who did
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Viscid
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Re: God!

Post by Viscid »

just feel great to be alive, and so thankful for what you have - who do you pass the feeling of gratitude onto!?
If you are thankful to God when feelin' great, then be grateful when tormented.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
mettatrader
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Re: God!

Post by mettatrader »

To everyone who has replied to this post, thank you very much. It is very interesting reading, and I am still "digesting" and considering the replies.

In the next posts I will also respond to some of the questions this thread has brought up!

Thanks again for your input!
khlawng wrote: To say that god is around us in flowers, nice views etc. is also incorrect and I can't think of any reference in Buddhism that would actually state something like that. Just out of curiosity, where are you reading these?
I read this from an old book called "Zen for Americans" - according to the book its the essays of a Zen Buddhist Abbot Soyen Shaku from Japan who visited the United States in 1905-6. I'm not sure how Zen compares with Theravada, but I assumed being a Buddhist school, the principals are the same.

Perhaps this is not in line with current thinking, because it was written a long time ago to introduce people who had no knowledge of Buddhism to the basics.

I found this book on the internet, at:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


For your interest, The quote I was referring to is below:

Buddhists do not think that God has any special abode, that his administration of the universe comes from a certain fixed center or headquarters, where he-sits in his august throne surrounded by angels and archangels and saints and pious spirits who have been admitted there through his grace. In short, the Buddhist God is not above us, nor below us, but right in the midst of us; and if we want to see him face to face, we are able to find him in the lilies of the field, in the fowls of the air, in the murmuring mountain streams; we can trace his footsteps in the sea, we can follow him as he rides upon the storm; we can meet him in the bush; indeed, wheresoever we may turn, we are sure to be greeted by the smiling countenance of the author of this universe. Who says, then, that God is in Heaven, in some unknown region where we mortals are never allowed to venture in without his special permit?

This God of Buddhism works constantly and everlastingly; he knows no rest, no fatigue, he has not to stop his work after six days of toil; he does not resort to any special revelation in order to announce his existence to the world; he has no favored son to sacrifice for the sake of the sin of which the poor innocent child has no conception. On the other hand, the Buddhist God is able to turn the meanest creature in the world to the noblest figure in which his glory is manifest to its full extent. He can destroy this whole universe and raise it again in the twinkling of an eye, it not being necessary for him to wait even for three days. His revelation is not an historical event, but it is happening every minute, and those who have eyes see it, those who have ears hear it. And to know the truth of this, it is only necessary to cleanse the heart of its egoistic impurities and defilements, which have been accumulating by virtue of our subjective ignorance. When this fundamental purification is completed, "we all, with unveiled face reflecting as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image, from glory to glory." Again, we are glorified with the "glory which he had with him before the world was." When we arrive at this exalted stage of spiritual enlightenment, Buddhism declares that we have attained Nirvâna
END QUOTE

Anyhow, even if it's totally wrong, I hope that the quote above is at least a curiosity that you might find interesting!

Best Wishes to all,

Philip.
mettatrader
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Re: God!

Post by mettatrader »

andrer9999 wrote:What is it about Christianity that has you looking elsewhere?
I have been brought up a Christian and have tried my best to follow that faith for most of my life.

Over the last year though I have been more and more drawn to Buddhism.

I think the main reason for my move towards Buddhism is that I always had trouble truly believing the supernatural aspects of the Bible, and some of the stories therein. I also found some of the stories seemed to conflict with others, leading to confusion. In short I would often come away from reading the Bible feeling like I didn't agree totally with what I had read and /or confused.

Once I started to read some Buddhist texts and words of Buddha, I had completely the opposite feeling, and It just feels like this is the religion or philosophy I have been looking for, but that I didn't didn't know existed before. It just seems to fit me better.

To be clear though, I have no complaint against Christianity at all, it's just a matter of preference.
plwk
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Re: God!

Post by plwk »

When I was a Christian seeking into Buddhism, I used to think along your questions in the initial stages. This managed to halt that wandering...hope it helps...
Simsapa Sutta
"And what have I taught?
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught.

And why have I taught these things?
Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation,
'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
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andre9999
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Re: God!

Post by andre9999 »

mettatrader wrote:I think the main reason for my move towards Buddhism is that I always had trouble truly believing the supernatural aspects of the Bible, and some of the stories therein. I also found some of the stories seemed to conflict with others, leading to confusion. In short I would often come away from reading the Bible feeling like I didn't agree totally with what I had read and /or confused.
Along with your Buddhist reading, you may also want to do some reading on the historical Jesus if you haven't already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

You may find that it addresses some of concerns that you have. Reading along those lines will also help bring context to the Bible, as opposed to the lately fashionable literalist interpretation.

That said, from my point of view the big differentiator between Buddhism and Christianity is where you place your faith - in god or in yourself. If you look around this world and agree with The Buddha that god cannot or will not stop suffering, then Buddhism is probably going to be a good path for you.
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Re: God!

Post by Lazy_eye »

mettatrader wrote:... God is all around us (e.g. in a beautiful flower, in a nice view, in a thunderstorm, even in us!)
I think this is what is known as "pantheism". My layman's guess is you are more likely to find elements of this view in Mahayana Buddhism as opposed to Theravada. Some of the Mahayana sutras (notably the Avatamsaka) suggest that Buddha is everywhere and in everything.

Thich Nhat Hanh's writings have a distinct leaning in this direction, if you're interested.

All best,

LE
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