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Agganna Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

Agganna Sutta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Agganna Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:00 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby piotr » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:06 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Jason » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:39 pm

Last edited by Jason on Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Will
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Will » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:49 pm

I have no problem taking the sutta literally. Similar genesis stories of godly beings degenerating into mankind are found in other ancient cultures.

By the by, Elohim, Ida Wells library link to Agganna Sutta no longer works. Too bad, they had a great selection of suttas & sutras.
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:07 pm

Thanks for that post Elohim :thumbsup:
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Jason » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:34 am

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Jason » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:34 am

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:56 am

For this explination to make sense, you must regard it within the context of the entire Pali Canon, meaningfully the Adhidhamma.
As these beings continually pass away into lower planes, whilst the world-system is forming during the evolution phase, the material of the solar-system is forming the sun and the planets. Remember that the brahmas do not percieve the light of the sun, they see by their own light which they radiate from their fine-material bodies. When the world finally becomes visible to them, and the darkness clears, and the sun appears, there is the world and the savory nutriment spread on the water. They partake of it and continue to become grosser. Whilst this is happening, the nutriment is developing into mold, fungi, plant-life, and subsequently the degenerating beings are partaking in these things and diversifying, and they develop sex. At last, the beings who've become animals become gross organisms at the bottom of the ecosystem, and consecutively this beings follow up into the humans. Thus the stable biological ecosystem is formed into the continued evolution phase.
Hopefully that was helpful? To me, this is clearly what the sutta is explaining.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:01 am


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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:13 am

Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:18 am


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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:25 am

That is very well said, and very good thought, the teaching of awakening is not disturbed by the teachings of Abhidhamma. Thanks for that. I agree with that too, I think those same things when discussing these matters with Christian-thinkers. Although, the fact that it doesn't disrupt the other is not cause for a discredit of the literal meaning of many Abdhidhamma concepts and the Agganna Sutta. Because that is a big deal. *When the entire context of the Pali Canon is considered, thoroughly and carefully, this non-literary take loses grounds. Why would the Buddha ascend to Tavatimsa to tell all the assembled devas the Abhidhamma if only to give Brahmanical ideas a Dhammic twist?
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:31 am


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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:38 am

Your viewpoint seems to be that these Abdhidhamma concepts and the Agganna Sutta should not be taken literally, and that the teachings pertaining directly to methods of awakening are to be taken literally if we're to use them to our advantage and attain Nibbana. You must find no practical use in these Abhidhamma concepts, or in the Agganna Sutta.
I think you should state that you would not take the Agganna Sutta literally at all, that the Buddha was not describing evolution--in answer to the original question by clw_uk. "What is everyone else's interpretation of this Sutta? Why are you following me and debating with me when I am just sharing my viewpoint, which is more concerned with literal Abhidhamma?
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:41 am


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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:49 am

Apologies. I just had the impression you were when we wound up talking about the same debate on two different discussion boards simultaneously. I don't mind debating in this section, but I'm not motivated to argue this point in any further detail concerning clw_uk's question of my own interpretation of the Agganna Sutta. I answered clw_uk's question, and I want to know their response before I debate about it in further detail.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:53 am


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son of dhamma
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:58 am

Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:18 am

With Metta

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yuttadhammo
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby yuttadhammo » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:54 am

If we don't take this story as literal, we will have to come up with some other explanation as to where we all were before the earth became liveable... unless we're going to deny the core Theravada doctrine of rebirth.

There's an argument for you, Tilt.




Upasampadā: 4 December, 2001


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