the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Tex
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Tex » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:39 pm

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:57 pm

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 am


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adeh
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby adeh » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:10 am

Organic farms also use pesticides, it's just that they use organic pesticides. Chilli spray [for example] may be organic, but it still kills insects.

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adeh
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby adeh » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:12 am

Peter wrote:
No one kills people for the express purpose of creating medical cadavers.

Except in Scotland.

And in Brazil. :oops: Sorry it was in Columbia 15 years ago.

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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:01 am

- Peter


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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:05 am

- Peter


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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby GOTAMIST » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:06 am


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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby Prasadachitta » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:28 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:40 am

That was nearly two hundred years ago, we have moved on a little in Bonny Scotland. Now we just get drunk and crash our cars which provides a steady supply of cadavers. :o

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:56 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:37 pm

- Peter


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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby Prasadachitta » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:41 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:10 pm

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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:19 pm

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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby Jechbi » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:05 pm


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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby Individual » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:27 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:18 pm

I am disappointed no one had the courtesy to address my very specific questions but instead resorted to answering unasked questions. Perhaps I was not clear enough in what I wanted to discuss.

I am interested in discussing the Buddha's teaching on what constitutes "killing" as it relates to buying meat. This is given as:

1. One kills living beings by one's own hand
2. One urges another to do it
3. One grants permission to another to do it
4. One speaks in praise of killing

Obviously when buying meat one does not kill by one's own hand (1). Also, the seller does not require permission to kill from the buyer (3). Also, I have never seen or heard anyone speak in praise of killing while buying meat (4). If there is any point of discussion I think it is point (2) urging another to kill.

Please note I am not asking if you are of the opinion that buying meat is wrong, or unwholesome, or unethical, or un-environmental, or something you just don't want to do. I am asking very specifically if and how buying meat constitutes urging another to kill.

In a scenario where the seller has live animals and a buyer says "I'll give you some money if you give me some meat" then I can see that constituting urging the seller to kill.

What about a scenario where the seller kills previous to any customers coming to buy? In this case we cannot match up a specific customer with a specific act of killing. Rather the seller considers that in the past he has sold meat, therefore in the future he might sell meat, therefore he will kill in the hopes that there will be customers tomorrow. Does this constitute the buyer urging the seller to kill? Maybe.

What about a scenario where the seller does not actually himself kill but it happens somewhere further up the supply chain? In this case there is no direct interaction between the buyer and the killer. If the buyer and the killer never meet, never have a direct interaction, then can we say the buyer urges the killer? With no direct interaction it seems to me to get hazy. We would have to think about how our action might be perceived by people we never meet, what effects it might have... this seems to me to stray from the Buddha's teachings, which tend to be very direct and immediate. Urging another to kill, if taken in the context of the rest of the Buddha's teachings, seems to me to refer to a very immediate and deliberate action. There would have to be the intention of urging, something like "May someone somewhere be motivated by this purchase to engage in future killing."

Your thoughts?
- Peter


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cooran
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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby cooran » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:58 pm

Hello Peter,

Interesting thread. Lots of 'eel wriggling' going on. :smile:

It is forbidden for a monk to eat meat if:

1. One kills the living being by one's own hand
2. One urges another to do it
3. One grants permission to another to do it
4. One speaks in praise of killing

As I understand it, Devadatta (the jealous relative and disciple of the Buddha who tried to injure and kill him) split the Sangha over the Vegetarian issue.
He wished the Buddha to state that eating meat was completely wrong and the Buddha refused,even knowing that the cost would be splitting the Sangha.

Although the Buddha thought that Vegetarianism is the preferred manner of eating, he resisted making it compulsory for monks, who are allowed to eat meat as long as they are unaware that the specific animal was killed specifically for their benefit. From the Buddha's perspective, vegetarianism is connected with extreme forms of asceticism, which he wants to avoid.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben
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Re: some very specific vegetarian questions

Postby Ben » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:32 pm

Dear Members

Out of respect to Peter, the original poster in this thread, please answer some or all of the questions he posed. Please keep the content of your post on-topic or it will be removed without warning.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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