the great rebirth debate

[rowyourboat]

I'll throw in my 2 cents!

I fall into the category of not really proclaiming to know either way and focusing on the here and now as it's knowable.

This is not to discount the Buddha's teachings, but I don't think practice changes with or without it as long as we stay on the path as much as possible thats what matters.

I suppose thats how I see the middle way, with extreme's in view comes clinging and attachment



With Metta,

Adam

Hi Adam

I think practice does change when a person starts to believe in rebirth- it becomes more essential to end the rounds of rebirth -therefore the person will put in more effort into the practice - hence progress further along the path.

with metta

Matheesha

[Spiny O'Norman]

I think practice does change when a person starts to believe in rebirth- it becomes more essential to end the rounds of rebirth -therefore the person will put in more effort into the practice - hence progress further along the path.

This can go both ways though. For some people the assumption of only 1 life to practice can impart a greater sense of urgency and more effort. And since we don't know what will happen to us tomorrow, let alone in some future lifetime, why speculate?

Spiny

[Phra Chuntawongso]

I think practice does change when a person starts to believe in rebirth- it becomes more essential to end the rounds of rebirth -therefore the person will put in more effort into the practice - hence progress further along the path.

This can go both ways though. For some people the assumption of only 1 life to practice can impart a greater sense of urgency and more effort. And since we don't know what will happen to us tomorrow, let alone in some future lifetime, why speculate?

Spiny

I guess that we can all agree then ,that the important thing here is practice.
With metta

[Aloka]

I think practice does change when a person starts to believe in rebirth- it becomes more essential to end the rounds of rebirth -therefore the person will put in more effort into the practice - hence progress further along the path.

This can go both ways though. For some people the assumption of only 1 life to practice can impart a greater sense of urgency and more effort. And since we don't know what will happen to us tomorrow, let alone in some future lifetime, why speculate?

Spiny

I guess that we can all agree then ,that the important thing here is practice.
With metta

Yes indeed. It's absolutely essential to always keep practising, no matter what anyone else says or does !

[Sasana]

I think practice does change when a person starts to believe in rebirth- it becomes more essential to end the rounds of rebirth -therefore the person will put in more effort into the practice - hence progress further along the path.

This can go both ways though. For some people the assumption of only 1 life to practice can impart a greater sense of urgency and more effort. And since we don't know what will happen to us tomorrow, let alone in some future lifetime, why speculate?

Spiny

I guess that we can all agree then ,that the important thing here is practice.
With metta

Bhante,

Very well said, I think becoming too attached to these ideas could possibly have a negative effect on practice so until it is proven correct, investigate, practice and through insight one can most probably make an informed decision as to whether it is something they believe or not.

Better to be open to new ideas then closed minded, it's through open mindedness we came to the Buddhas teachings.

So it maybe true for some that practice now is on the forefront of the mind because of the idea of stopping rebirths, for others its imperative because there is but one life to attain enlightenment, two paths to the one destination.

With Metta,

Adam

[Ceisiwr]

So it maybe true for some that practice now is on the forefront of the mind because of the idea of stopping rebirths, for others its imperative because there is but one life to attain enlightenment, two paths to the one destination.

Or there is having no notions or views about one life, two lives or a million lives

[kirk5a]

Or there is having no notions or views about one life, two lives or a million lives

hehe having no notions! but what will I do without my notions!

[Alex123]

So it maybe true for some that practice now is on the forefront of the mind because of the idea of stopping rebirths, for others its imperative because there is but one life to attain enlightenment, two paths to the one destination.

Or there is having no notions or views about one life, two lives or a million lives

Is that due to lack of knowledge or extreme agnosticism?


If there was only one life, then what would be the point of practice? Why wouldn't one simply take strong medicine to tranquillize bad mental states? We all would attain parinibbāna at death. In fact one could attain it even quicker... That would be a very rational choice...If that was the case, then I could end all my daily physical pain quickly...

As someone has said: "Life is beautiful once you find the right anti-depressant".

[ground]

Or there is having no notions or views about one life, two lives or a million lives

That sounds nice. But please consider to observe yourself mindfully when you leave the computer. Do you really abide in a state beyond time? If not then you are trapped

[Aloka]

If there was only one life, then what would be the point of practice? Why wouldn't one simply take strong medicine to tranquillize bad mental states? We all would attain parinibbāna at death. In fact one could attain it even quicker... That would be a very rational choice...If that was the case, then I could end all my daily physical pain quickly...

As someone has said: "Life is beautiful once you find the right anti-depressant".

The fact remains, Alex123, that there are plenty of practitioners, like myself, who prefer to remain neutral about this matter, and just don't think about post- mortem rebirth at all, but let all that mental spinning and speculating go, in favor of present moment awareness.

Lets see again what Ajahn Sumedho is saying here in "The sound of Silence"

The historical Buddha refered to previous lives in the scriptures and things like this, but for me these things are speculative. Maybe you can remember previous lives, but I have no such memory. So all I know is from the here and now. We’re talking about direct knowing rather than Buddhist theory or Buddhist doctrine.
When Ajahn Chah taught about rebirth, he did so in the context of paticcasumappada, or dependent origination. He was talking about the kind of rebirth you can actually witness in daily life; birth is the beginning, death is the ending. How many rebirths have you gone through today, mentally ? What is born dies; what arises, ceases. Rebirth in this sense is actually provable.

In the paticcasamuppada, through desire (tanha) comes attachment (upadana), and then attachment leads to becoming (bhava), becoming leads to rebirth, and rebirth leads to suffering. Jati (birth) is the result of grasping desire. I quite like the idea of reincarnation and rebirth, on a theoretical level. I’ve no bias against it, but it is speculative and it’s conceptual.”

Ajahn Sumedho

[Alex123]

The fact remains, Alex123, that there are plenty of practitioners, like myself, who prefer to remain neutral about this matter, and just don't think about post- mortem rebirth at all, but let all that mental spinning and speculating go, in favor of present moment awareness.

Whenever one acts, it is due to a certain goal. Action is dependent on beliefs. The belief in danger of samsara is a required condition for action to get out of it. The more afraid you are of burning house, the more effort is produced to get out ASAP!

If we limit samsara and its danger to one life only, then the limited understanding of danger will produce limited sense of danger, and limited effort to get out.


Ultimately, even bare aggregates, devoid of clinging (which is very hard to achieve within one life. How many anagamis or arahants are there?), produce lots of pain... There would be an easy way to get rid of all bodily pain, and various painful events that can occur despite one's lack of present clinging.

With metta,

Alex

[Aloka]

If we limit samsara and its danger to one life only, then the limited understanding of danger will produce limited sense of danger, and limited effort to get out.

Not for me. Speculating about the possibility of a future life as an ant, or roasting in a hot hell being poked by forks just seems pointless!

I'll take my chances and do my best in this life, thanks. I've been lucky and have had/have very good offline teachers so far.

[Alex123]

Not for me. Speculating about the possibility of a future life as an ant, or roasting in a hot hell being poked by forks just seems pointless!

It is not pointless if it motivates you to strive harder.

Besides, the Buddha did teach about continuation after death. Buddha taught strict conditionality, where kamma inevitably brings kammavipāka. So what if kamma is made by the last moment of mind? It inevitably will follow with a corresponding vipāka, in the new body. So rejection or agnosticism about rebirth, is also agnosticism about a crucial teaching of kamma and kammavipāka.


For example in MN144, Bhikkhu Channa used the knife for suicide. But he became an Arahant before death. The Buddha has said:

if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent. Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ada-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What do you think it means about not seizing another body, when this body dies (Ven. Channa used the knife). If there was one life, then death as a worldling and death as an Arahat would bring the same result and disregard the vital teaching on kamma & kammavipāka.


What about MN129 and MN130?
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ita-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In MN130 (Devaduta sutta) the Buddha clearly has stated about Hell,

``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... uta-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

Alex

[Aloka]

It is not pointless if it motivates you to strive harder.

"Striving" doesn't do it for me, Alex. Relaxing and letting go of all that extra mental baggage does.

" The Buddhist teaching is ultimate simplicity and it takes things to the the most simple level of pure awareness -and that's so simple that most people never really get it.

We have to make Buddhism more complex -especially for lay people!" - chuckles

(Ajahn Sumedho - Amaravati Kathina.)

[Sanghamitta]

Or there is having no notions or views about one life, two lives or a million lives

That sounds nice. But please consider to observe yourself mindfully when you leave the computer. Do you really abide in a state beyond time? If not then you are trapped

Do you T.Mingyur ? Abide in a state beyond time....if not you are in no position to give sermons to anyone else. You are just parroting stuff you believe. Its provenance might be impeccable.....but its all second hand.