the great rebirth debate

[Alex123]

Hello CLW,


Just because word jati was used once (or few times) for arising of impersonal elements, it doesn't change the fact that there is another meaning of jati and it was described as rebirth.


Please explain MN129 and MN130.

Also please explain "With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to..." .


As for "clinging aggregates". Even an arahant has clinging aggregates, the aggregates that arose due to previous (prior to arahantship) clinging.

So if it is only clinging aggregates that are dukkha, then even an Arahant would experience that dukkha.

[Ben]

Hi Craig

Thanks for taking the time to provide those responses. Again, I am sorry to say, I believe it is just selective quoting.
You also mention that rebirth was a doctrine "that the Buddha made use of". I think underlying that comment is an assumption that rebirth, as the Buddha taught it (or something very similar to it) was so dominant as to be widely accepted by his contemporaries that teaching the Dhamma unalloyed from the contemporary view of rebirth would have been too radical for the vast majority of his putthujana followers, is that correct?
kind regards

Ben

[tiltbillings]

However he did see merits in one particular view. This was the view of being reborn after death. He saw that such a view could lead to development of morality in people. Hence he encouraged such a view to some. However it was/is a tainted view. That is to say it is bound up with grasping, I-making and dukkha. It is therefore not part of his own teachings but rather something he made use of

Make use of. Insight into rebirth was a central part of the Buddha's awakening experience, and as much as you try to dismiss rebirth as some sort of "tainted" view thingie, you have made no comvincing argument for that position. Any view can be "tainted." The view about views that you anti-rebirthers are clinging to to dismiss what the Buddha clearly taught makes that point.

[tiltbillings]

"Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worlding ... Reguards form as Self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation. That formation - what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it BORN and produced? When ther uninstructed wordling .. is contacted by feeling born of ignorance contact, craving arises. Thence that formation is born.

"


Bodhi translation page 922

If you could actually read Pali, inderstand its grammar and idiomatic word usage, you would see that there is nothing unusual in the fact a word such as jati can be used in any number of contexts. To assume that it is otherwise is likely to result in a self guided toddle down the garden path.

On a side note Ben, this quite clearly shows that Jati in the scheme of D.O. refers to birth of "I" and NOT the birth of the aggregates


This falls in line with the definition of the first noble truth

"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five aggregates subject to clinging are dukkha.

Notice it states that

In short, the five aggregates subject to clinging are dukkha.

In other words

Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha,

all come to be when there is clinging to the aggregates.

There is clinging to the aggregates all the time, so there is constant birth (and dukkha)

So when there is clinging, there is birth of "I am". This then is bound with ageing-death and stress

Cling to the body and there is "I am" the body. The body ages and falters and there is dukkha


metta

And there is not one thing in what you said here that even remotely approaches a convincing argument against this text also being reasonably read in a literal manner. The extreme view here, the view that is indicative of clinging, is the one that insist that there only one correct way to read this text.

[hamsa]

DN 28

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Sampasadaniya_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Moreover, lord, this too is unsurpassable : the way namely in which the Exalted One teaches the Norm concerning descensions at rebirth : — That there are four modes in descension, thus : — one descends into the mother's womb unknowing, 3 abides there unknowing, departs thence unknowing. This is the first mode. Next, one descends into the mother's womb knowingly, but persists there and departs thence unknowing. This is the second mode. Again, one descends and persists knowing, but departs unknowing. This is the third mode. Again, one descends into the mother's womb, knowing, persists there knowing and departs thence knowing. This is the fourth mode of descension. Unsurpassable, lord, is this concerning descensions at rebirth.

Here the terms used are alternatively gabbha and its synonym, kucchi, both explicitly meaning ‘womb’ (gabbha-avakkanti = the coming down into the womb – here translated just as ‘mode’, to avoid repetitions; matū-kucchi = mother’s womb):

“Aparam para bhante etad ānuttariyaṃ, yathā Bhagavā dhammaṃ deseti gabbhāvakkantīsu. Catasso imā bhante gabbhāvakkantiyo. Idha bhante ekacco asampajāno c’eva mātu kucchiṃ okkamati, asampajāno mātu kucchismiṃ ṭhāti, asampajāno mātu kucchismā nikkhamati. Ayaṃ paṭhamā gabbhāvakkhanti. Puna ca paraṃ bhante idh’ekacco sampajāno pi kho mātu kucchiṃ okkamati, asampajāno mātu kucchismiṃ ṭhāti, asampajāno mātu kucchismā nikkhamati. Ayaṃ dutiyā gabbhāvakkhanti. Puna ca paraṃ bhante idh’ekacco sampajāno pi kho mātu kucchiṃ okkamati, sampajāno mātu kucchismiṃ ṭhāti, asampajāno mātu kucchismā nikkhamati. Ayaṃ tatiyā gabbhāvakkhanti. Puna ca paraṃ bhante idh’ekacco sampajāno pi kho mātu kucchiṃ okkamati, sampajāno mātu kucchismiṃ ṭhāti, sampajāno mātu kucchismā nikkhamati. Ayaṃ catutthā gabbhāvakkhanti. Etad ānuttariyaṃ bhante gabbhāvakkhantīsu.”
(D 28, PTS iii.103)

[Sasana]

I'll throw in my 2 cents!

I fall into the category of not really proclaiming to know either way and focusing on the here and now as it's knowable.

This is not to discount the Buddha's teachings, but I don't think practice changes with or without it as long as we stay on the path as much as possible thats what matters.

I suppose thats how I see the middle way, with extreme's in view comes clinging and attachment



With Metta,

Adam

[Ceisiwr]

Tilt

If you could actually read Pali, inderstand its grammar and idiomatic word usage, you would see that there is nothing unusual in the fact a word such as jati can be used in any number of contexts. To assume that it is otherwise is likely to result in a self guided toddle down the garden path.

I know it can, just like birth in english can mean different things. "birth" of a nation for example


However it is clear that the Buddha, in terms of D.O., meant birth to mean birth of "I" and not birth of the aggregates


kind regards

[Ceisiwr]

Alex

Just because word jati was used once (or few times) for arising of impersonal elements, it doesn't change the fact that there is another meaning of jati and it was described as rebirth.

Jati in D.O. means birth of "I" and not birth of the aggregates

Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worlding ... Reguards form as Self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation. That formation - what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it BORN and produced? When ther uninstructed wordling .. is contacted by feeling born of ignorance contact, craving arises. Thence that formation is born."

Bodhi translation page 922

Please explain MN129 and MN130.


Also please explain "With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to..." .

MN 129

‘Bhikkhus, these three are the marks, characteristics and attainments of the fool. What are the three? The fool has foolish thoughts, foolish words and foolish actions.If the fool was not with foolish thoughts, words and actions, how are the wise to know this good person is a fool, an unworthy one. Since the fool thinks, speaks and acts foolishly, the wise know he is a fool. The fool experiences unpleasantness and displeasure here and now in three ways. Bhikkhus, if the fool is with a crowd, in the street corner or a junction, and if the people there were talking some current topic, and if he destroyed living things, took the not given, misbehaved sexually, told lies and took intoxicating drinks, it occurs to him. These things the people are talking are evident in me too. This is the first instance that the fool experiences unpleasantness and displeasure.

Again, bhikkhus, the fool sees an offender taken hold by the king and given various kinds of torture caned and wipped, flogged with the jungle rope, flogged with the soiled stick, hands severed, legs severed, or both hands and legs severed, ears and nose severed, put in the boiling gruel pot, shell tonsured, put in Raahu’s mouth, garlanded with the blazing garland, hands scorched, the bark dress given, put with snakes, putting hooks in theflesh, cutting pieces of flesh from the body, driving a spike from ear to ear, beating to make the body like straw, immersing in the boiling oil, giving to the dogs to be eaten, raising on a spike alive until death, and cutting the neck with the sword. Bhikkhus, then it occurs to the fool, for the reason of doing evil this robber, evil doer is punished. If the king gets hold of me, I too will be subjectedto these same punishments. This is the second instance that the fool experiences unpleasantness and displeasure.

Again, bhikkhus, when the fool is relaxed on a chair, on the bed or on a cover on the floor, he thinks of his misbehaviours by body, speech and mind. At such times they press on him heavily. Like the shadow of a huge mountain peak, would fall on the earth heavily in the evening..In the same mannerwhen the fool is relaxed on a chair, on the bed or on a cover on the floor, he thinks of his misbehaviours by body, speech and mind. At such times they press on him heavily. Bhikkhus, then it occurs to the fool. I did not do good and merit. Didn’t dispel the fear of the frightened, did evil bloody faults and later I will reap their results. He grieves, laments, beats his breast and comes to bewilderment of mind. Bhikkhus, this is the third instance that the fool experiences unpleasantness and displeasure.

Bhikkhus, the fool misbehaving by body, speech and mind, at the break up of the body after death, goes to decrease, is born in hell. Saying it rightly that hell is completely unwelcome and disagreeable. It is not easy to give a comparison for that unpleasantness.

http://www.vipassana.info/129-balapandita-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Buddha is explaning the draw backs of unwholesome behaviour and then contrasts this with a widely held belief of the time, that of hell. So what?

We already know why the Buddha teaches such things to some people

Here, Anuruddha, a bhikkhu hears, the venerable bhikkhu of this name has passed away, and the Blessed One has declared that he with the destruction of the five lower bonds has arisen spontaneously, and would not proceed. Now this venerable bhikkhu happens to be a person seen by that bhikkhu or not seen. He hears, these were the virtues of the venerable bhikkhu, these were his thoughts, such was his wisdom, he developed these abidings, and was released. So this bhikkhu recollects, that faith, those virtues, his learnedness, benevolence and wisdom and directs his mind to it. Anuruddha, in this manner too there is a pleasant abiding to a bhikkhu. Anuruddha, a bhikkhu hears, the venerable bhikkhu of this name has passed away, and the Blessed One has declared that he with the destruction of the three lower bonds and lessening greed, hate and delusion, has become a once returner. Coming here once more will make an end of unpleasantness. Now this venerable one happens to be a person seen by that bhikkhu, or not seen. He hears, these were the virtues and thoughts of the venerable bhikkhu, such was his wisdom, he developed these abidings, and was released. So he recollects that faith, those virtues, his learnedness, benevolence and wisdom and directs his mind to it. Anuruddha, in this manner too there is a pleasant abiding to a bhikkhu. Anuruddha, a bhikkhu hears, the venerable one of this name, has passed away, and the Blessed One has declared that, with the destruction of the three lower bonds he is an enterer into the stream of the Teaching. That he would not fall, intent on extinction.Now this venerable bhikkhu happens to be a person seen by that bhikkhu, or not seen. He hears, these were the virtues and thoughts of the venerable bhikkhu, such was his wisdom, he developed these abidings, and was released. So this bhikkhu recollects that faith, those virtues, his learnedness, benevolence and wisdom and directs his mind to it. Anuruddha, in this manner too there is a pleasant abiding to a bhikkhu

http://www.vipassana.info/068-nalakapana-e1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The other sutta is quite clearly a teaching on various mental/meditative states

As for "clinging aggregates". Even an arahant has clinging aggregates, the aggregates that arose due to previous (prior to arahantship) clinging.

So if it is only clinging aggregates that are dukkha, then even an Arahant would experience that dukkha.

The aggregates subject to clinging are dukkha

[Ceisiwr]

Hi Craig

Thanks for taking the time to provide those responses. Again, I am sorry to say, I believe it is just selective quoting.
You also mention that rebirth was a doctrine "that the Buddha made use of". I think underlying that comment is an assumption that rebirth, as the Buddha taught it (or something very similar to it) was so dominant as to be widely accepted by his contemporaries that teaching the Dhamma unalloyed from the contemporary view of rebirth would have been too radical for the vast majority of his putthujana followers, is that correct?
kind regards

Ben

Hardly selective. Anyway the view of rebirth after death in some form or another was around at the time (jain, ajivaka and maybe some Vedantic form). The Buddha realized that it was tainted, that is to say caught up in grasping and is dukkha. However he seen the benefits of it in that it leads to developing wholesome states


However he also made use of other views as well (assuming the crowd was suitable) as evidence of his use of the annihilationist view

"There the blessed one uttered this inspired utterance: "It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, [and] it will not be for me: resolving thus, a bhikkhu can cut off the lower fetters"

When this was said a certain bhikhhu said to the blessed one: "But how venerable sir, can a bhikkhu resolving this .... cut off the lower fetters?"

Here bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling .... regards form as self....,... or self as in consciousness. He does not understand as it really is impermanent form as "impermanent form" ... impermanent feeling, ... impermanent perception, .... impermanent volition, ... impermanent consciousness.

He does not understand as it really is painful form as "painful form", ... painful feeling, ... painful perception, .... painful formation, ... painful consciousness.

He does not understand ... selfless form as "selfless form", selfless feeling, selfless perception, selfless formation, selfless consciousness

He does not understand .... conditioned form as "conditioned form", conditioned feeling, conditioned perception, conditioned formation, conditioned consciousness.

"He does not understand as it really is, "Form will be exterminated", ... feeling will be exterminated, .... perception will be exterminated, ...., formation will be exterminated, ... consciousness will be exterminated.


"The instructed noble disciple, bhikkhu,... does not regard form as self, .... or self as in consciousness.

"He understands as it really is, "impermanent form, ... consciousness."

He understands as it really is. " painful form, ... painful consciousness."

He understands as it really is. " selfless form as "selfless form", ... Selfless consciousness"

"He understands as it really is, "conditioned form, ... conditioned consciousness"


He understands as it really is, " form will be exterminated, feeling will be exterminated, perception will be exterminated, formations will be exterminated, consciousness will be exterminated.

"With the extermination of form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, that bhikkhu, resolving thus "It might not be, and it might not be for me, it will not be, it will not be for me". can cut off the lower fetters


...but how should one know, how should one see, for immediate destruction of the taints to occur?


Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling becomes frightened over and unfightening matter. For this is frightening to the uninstructed worldling: "It might not be, and it might not be for me, it will not be, it will not be for me". But the instructed noble disciple does not become frightened ... "It might not be, and it might not be for me, it will not be, it will not be for me"


"Consciousness ... while standing, might stand engaged with form, ... feeling, .... perception, engaged with formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase and expansion.

"Bhikkhu, thought someone might say: "Apart from form, feeling, perception, formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and birth, its growth, increase, and expansion - that is impossible.

"Bhikkhu, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for feeling element, perception element, formations element, for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness.

"When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attain nibbana. He understands ... no more state of being."

SN page 893/4 Bodhi translation

[Ceisiwr]

"A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides . He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Alex123]

That sutta probably means not taking up wrong views, and not clinging to right views. Not clinging to right views doesn't mean that one rejects them. One simply doesn't cling to them.

In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others).

In your own quote it does mention "another existence". One doesn't have fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed by non-Buddhists.



I believe in literal rebirth. However it would be nice if there was only one life (after which there would be parinibbana) and this miserable existence would end once and for all. There also would even be a shortcut...

[Ceisiwr]

Hi Alex

That sutta probably means not taking up wrong views

It doesnt say that it says views.

, and not clinging to right views. Not clinging to right views doesn't mean that one rejects them. One simply doesn't cling to them

Im not rejecting them. Rebirth view, such as annihilation view, arises due to the process outlined in the Honey Ball Sutta. When one understands this then one can work to stop the process and so the view just doesnt come up at all

Ven. Maha Kaccana said this: "Concerning the brief statement the Blessed One made, after which he went into his dwelling without analyzing the detailed meaning — i.e., 'If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of objectification assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder'

"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Understanding the dependent origination of such views will then lead to a situation where

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, form is impermanent, ..feeling ..., perception, formations, consciousness is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: "This is not mind, this I am not, this is not my self"

"When one sees this thus as it really is with correct wisdom, one holds no more views concerning the past. When one holds no more views concerning the past, one holds no more views concerning the future.

When one holds no more views concerning the future, one has no more obstinate grasping. When one has no more obstinate grasping, the mind becomes dispassionate towars form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, and is liberated from the taints by non-clinging.

"By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, one is not agitated. Being unagitated, one personally attains nibbana. One understands: "Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived .... there is no more for this state of being

SN page 885 Bodhi translation



We are also taught that Rebirth after death as a deva view is a Tainted view, i.e. it is caught up in clinging and dukkha

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


But why would he teach in line with rebirth view with some?

Anuruddha, for what purpose does the Thus Gone One tell the disciples, without wasting time, before you die, be born in something higher. Stating one is born there, another there. (* 2) The Teaching’s origin is the Blessed One, its lead is from the Blessed One, and its refuge is the Blessed One. Good that the meaning occurs to the Blessed One.We, bhikkhus, hearing it from the Blessed One, will bear it in mind. Anuruddha, the Thus Gone One tells the disciples, without wasting time before you die, be born in something higher. Telling them one is born there, another there. Not to deceive people, not for prattling, and not for gain honour or fame and not thinking may the people know me thus. Yet, Anuruddha, there are sons of clansmen who are born in faith and are pleased, to hear it. Hearing it they would arouse interest and direct their minds to that and it would be for their good for a long time.

http://www.vipassana.info/068-nalakapana-e1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




The Buddha taught that views, like the one you have, are a yoke. The process via which they arise should be understood and then abandoned.

]"And how is there the yoke of views? There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-
thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving. This is the yoke of sensuality, the yoke of becoming, & the yoke of views.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#views" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and

At Savatthi. "Monks, there are these four floods. Which four? The flood of sensuality, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance. These are the four floods.

"Now, this noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge of, comprehension of, the total ending of, & the abandoning of these four floods. Which noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go. This noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge of, for comprehension of, for the total ending of, & for the abandoning of these four floods."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The Buddha set out to understand Dukkkha and how to overcome. He didnt set out to discover some metaphysical doctrine

Upon his enlightenment he realized that clinging gives birth to "I" am via dependent origination.

Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worlding ... Reguards form as Self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation. That formation - what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it BORN and produced? When ther uninstructed wordling .. is contacted by feeling born of ignorance contact, craving arises. Thence that formation is born."

Bodhi translation page 922


He also seen that via this process the various metaphysical views that arise in the world also come into being. This is shown via the honey ball sutta


Now when asked what view does an arahant/buddha have, what is the answer? Well we have it right here

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless.This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)

When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Metaphysical views are dependtly originated and thus are dukkha, hence why the Buddha does not hold such views

The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that's what I know. That's what I see. Knowing that, I say 'I know.' Seeing that, I say 'I see.' Why should I say 'I don't know, I don't see'? I do know. I do see.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ceisiwr]

I believe in literal rebirth. However it would be nice if there was only one life (after which there would be parinibbana) and this miserable existence would end once and for all. There also would even be a shortcut...

Still caught in the net of views I see


If there is one life and since I am suffering then if I kill myself then I wont experience dukkha anymore



Clinging, "I am" and aversion is what he have here

[Ben]

Still caught in the net of views I see

Coming from you, this is just priceless.

[Sanghamitta]

Frankly it would be priceless from either of them. Its the one thing they share.