Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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mikenz66
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

You seem to be ignoring Ven Nananada's Sutta quote and commentary that states that that Arahants still experience vedena.

Mike
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Not at all... that is responded to in the text I bolded and redded above.
What this verse purports to describe is the state of a person
for whom form as also pleasure and pain has ceased to exist. He
is not one with normal perception, nor is he one with abnormal
perception. He is not non-percipient, nor has he rescinded perception.
It is to one constituted in this manner that form ceases
to exist, for, papañcasaṅkhā - whatever they may be - have perception
as their source.
Like I said before, it's a case of (phenomenological) perception... not so much a case of whether vedana "exists" or vedana "does not exist" for the arahant.

As for the notion of "Nibbàna element with residual clinging", I struggle to see how an arahant could 'cling' to anything, thus find this term perplexing and honestly don't know quite what to make of it. Is it a case of acquired habit over-riding supramundane-panna? Perplexing. Maybe it explains the need for the Buddha to say anything to Angulimala at all... maybe certain automatic tendencies still remained even if they had lost their kammic potency. Interesting stuff - as deep as the oceans.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hi retro, all

I just skimmed through the thread so I don't know if my example is redundant. Here it goes anyway: the death of the Buddha
28. But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

DN16
. And soon after the Blessed One had eaten the meal provided by Cunda the metalworker, a dire sickness fell upon him, even dysentery, and he suffered sharp and deadly pains. But the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed.

DN16
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

I love pondering mad things like this. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Individual wrote:I love pondering mad things like this. :)
Individual,

If someone cannot be reborn (because all the fetters to samsara are cut) how can potential vipaka ripen or "catch up with them"?
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

Virgo wrote:
Individual wrote:I love pondering mad things like this. :)
Individual,

If someone cannot be reborn (because all the fetters to samsara are cut) how can potential vipaka ripen or "catch up with them"?
Freedom from birth is not the same thing as the non-capacity for birth. A chunk of stone, for instance, is not the realization of Nibbana, is it?

If an Arahant can cut off infinite aeons of kamma at death, if at death aeons of vipaka no longer affect him, why can't he do this in life if death is nothing special with regards to rebirth?
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Individual wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Individual wrote:I love pondering mad things like this. :)
Individual,

If someone cannot be reborn (because all the fetters to samsara are cut) how can potential vipaka ripen or "catch up with them"?
Freedom from birth is not the same thing as the non-capacity for birth. A chunk of stone, for instance, is not the realization of Nibbana, is it?

If an Arahant can cut off infinite aeons of kamma at death, if at death aeons of vipaka no longer affect him, why can't he do this in life if death is nothing special with regards to rebirth?
The reason the Arahant can no longer experience vipaka after his last lifetime is because he will not be reborn. There are no conditions for any vipaka to ripen or play out. In the life that the Arahant attains Arahantship, His defilements are cut, but the sense bases are still in tact, that is to say there is still a body. That being so, things will happen to him in his body (so to speak). Once the vipaka that sustains the physical life force is run out, it's see you later-- no more birth in any realm in any way, no more fruition of kammas, He has gone beyond to the other shore.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

Virgo wrote: The reason the Arahant can no longer experience vipaka after his last lifetime is because he will not be reborn. There are no conditions for any vipaka to ripen or play out. In the life that the Arahant attains Arahantship, His defilements are cut, but the sense bases are still in tact, that is to say there is still a body. That being so, things will happen to him in his body (so to speak). Once the vipaka that sustains the physical life force is run out, it's see you later-- no more birth in any realm in any way, no more fruition of kammas, He has gone beyond to the other shore.

Kevin
I understand that. However: If he is not reborn after death, why is he reborn when he breathes in and then breathes out? :)

Is rebirth reincarnation? The body needs to die physically for there to be "rebirth"? Dependent Origination only applies with the break-up of the body? The break-up of the body is a special situation? :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Individual wrote: I understand that. However: If he is not reborn after death, why is he reborn when he breathes in and then breathes out? :)
He isn't.

He has gone beyond. There is only rupa (materiallity) of the body arising and passing away based on vipaka, and consciousness (ableit purified consciousness) arising naturally at the sense bases because the sense bases are in tact due to the body being in tact.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

Virgo wrote:
Individual wrote: I understand that. However: If he is not reborn after death, why is he reborn when he breathes in and then breathes out? :)
He isn't.

He has gone beyond. There is only rupa (materiallity) of the body arising and passing away based on vipaka, and consciousness (ableit purified consciousness) arising naturally at the sense bases because the sense bases are in tact due to the body being in tact.

Kevin
What does it mean to say "he is not reborn"? As I understand it, it means no more name and form. Is that correct?

Therefore, how can you say he is not reborn in this life if there is still name and form? And if there is still name and form in this life, how do these things cease at death when they have not already ceased in life? :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Individual wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Individual wrote: I understand that. However: If he is not reborn after death, why is he reborn when he breathes in and then breathes out? :)
He isn't.

He has gone beyond. There is only rupa (materiallity) of the body arising and passing away based on vipaka, and consciousness (ableit purified consciousness) arising naturally at the sense bases because the sense bases are in tact due to the body being in tact.

Kevin
What does it mean to say "he is not reborn"? As I understand it, it means no more name and form. Is that correct?

Therefore, how can you say he is not reborn in this life if there is still name and form? And if there is still name and form in this life, how do these things cease at death when they have not already ceased in life? :)
The definition I use of nama and rupa is mentallity and materiallity.

While an Arahant is still alive both mentallity and materiallity still arise. The rupa that make up the body arise and cease continually because the life force has not run out. Wisdom which attains nibbana is not a cause for making life force run out. When the heart stops beating it has run out, not before. This is true for any people. During the lifetime of an Arahant not only does the body still remain but the sense bases do too. The sense bases are the bases for consciousness. Because of this, there is still consciousness and thinking. The fetters have been removed though never to return. So there is no more delusion at all. It is known that nothing is mine or me by the Arahant. There is not attachment or aversion and there is no conceit. There is simply purified consciousness that still experiences seeing, hearing, smelling, and so on but regards not of it as self or as anything to be attached to, but simply as arising phenomena. With the fetters cut, at death (when the life force runs out) there are no causes for birth. This being so, no rupa will arise on any plane of existence. Neither will any consciousness arise on any plane of existence. Seeing consciousness will not arise because of lack of the seeing sense base (eye), hearing consciousness will not arise due to lack of the hearing sense base (ear), smelling consciousness will not arise due to lack of the smelling sense base (nose), tasting consciousness will not arise due to lack of the tasting sense base (rupa of the tongue), feeling consciousness will not arise due to lack of feeling consciousness sense base (rupa which are spread all throughout the body), and mental consciousness will not arise due to lack of mental consciousness mind base. All arising and falling conditioned phenomena that arise due to the entaglement of the fetters cease to arise at that point.

Does this help?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

No, because I still don't understand how you are separating the arising of mentality-materiality from the doctrine of rebirth, saying an Arahant isn't reborn in this life yet he still has mentality-materiality. What is rebirth if not the continual arising of mentality and materiality?

Nor do I understand the specific relevance of "life-force," to rebirth or vipaka. How is life-force a special cause for rebirth (and yet for Arahants it's not called rebirth?), but the "purified consciousness," of an Arahant is not a cause for rebirth? How is it that only some vipaka can be exhausted when there is life-force, and yet all the vipaka from innumerable births can only be exhausted when life-force is cut off? :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Individual wrote:No, because I still don't understand how you are separating the arising of mentality-materiality from the doctrine of rebirth, saying an Arahant isn't reborn in this life yet he still has mentality-materiality. What is rebirth if not the continual arising of mentality and materiality?

He doesn't have anything. The chain of Dependant Origination has been broken. Rupa of the body arise due to vipaka, heat, temperature, etc. They are not his, they are not him. They are individual rupa.
Individual wrote: Nor do I understand the specific relevance of "life-force," to rebirth or vipaka. How is life-force a special cause for rebirth (and yet for Arahants it's not called rebirth?), but the "purified consciousness," of an Arahant is not a cause for rebirth? How is it that only some vipaka can be exhausted when there is life-force, and yet all the vipaka from innumerable births can only be exhausted when life-force is cut off? :)
Life force is not a cause for rebirth, but once rebirth has occurred the body will maintain for some time because there is vipaka for it. It isn't so much that some vipaka is exhausted when there is life force, and all vipaka is exhausted after death. It is that during the life of the Arahant, fetters are absent, so even though mind and matter arise, there is no clinging to them, so no unpleasant mental feeling, even towards "pain", and no misunderstanding or delusion of what is occurring. As I said, mind and matter still arise because the body still functions, there is vipaka for the body to function because it was born. After the death of the Arahant, however, owning to the absence of the ten binding fetters, there is no more cause for rebirth literally, so any potential vipaka that is left over cannot play out.

Kevin
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: Not at all... that is responded to in the text I bolded and redded above.
What this verse purports to describe is the state of a person
for whom form as also pleasure and pain has ceased to exist. He
is not one with normal perception, nor is he one with abnormal
perception. He is not non-percipient, nor has he rescinded perception.
It is to one constituted in this manner that form ceases
to exist, for, papañcasaṅkhā - whatever they may be - have perception
as their source.
Like I said before, it's a case of (phenomenological) perception... not so much a case of whether vedana "exists" or vedana "does not exist" for the arahant.
It still seems to me that you're trying to sidestep the issue of examining what the Suttas actually say (and how Ven Nanananda comments on them) by hiding behind the rather convoluted and [strawman-word alert!] academic [straw-man off] argument: "If I said that it would be ontology not phenomenology" argument. As you know I find to be a rather curious way of approaching the Dhamma. How about just considering what the Suttas actually say: Nibbana with residual clinging involves feeling.
retrofuturist wrote: As for the notion of "Nibbàna element with residual clinging", I struggle to see how an arahant could 'cling' to anything, thus find this term perplexing and honestly don't know quite what to make of it. Is it a case of acquired habit over-riding supramundane-panna? Perplexing. Maybe it explains the need for the Buddha to say anything to Angulimala at all... maybe certain automatic tendencies still remained even if they had lost their kammic potency. Interesting stuff - as deep as the oceans.
Yes, the standard explanation is that they are tendencies that are the result of previous kamma. I know there is something about that somewhere but I'm not sure if it is Sutta or commentary.

Mike
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by kirk5a »

This sutta (44 on the link) says "Nibbana element with residue." Not with residual clinging. Or in the Thanissaro translation "The Unbinding property with fuel remaining, & the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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