Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by kirk5a »

tinhtan wrote: when over-ampplifying particular small parts, they will put the whole picture in an unbalanced state.
now relax, I remember a history about "who have a decisive role ?"
- the brain says me, the heart says me, the stomach says me, the kidneys say me, .... and the anus, face to such trouble, decide to protest on unlimited strike. All the others are laughing at the anus.
But after 3 days, 7 days, finally 10 days later, all begin to be really really unconfortable, 20 days later, every one realizes that if the anus strike continues, it will be a serious issue of dead or alive ! then they all agree that the anus plays a decisive role !
This reminds that each part have a reason in existence and a function to accomplish. If all play its role in harmony, so the result will be a heatlhy state.
:rofl:
Ahh thanks for the reminder that dependent origination and anatta are not just linear mechanical theories of causality - they also point to interrelationship. Assertions of "control" or "no control" ... very narrow views.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Kirk5a,
kirk5a wrote: Ahh thanks for the reminder that dependent origination and anatta are not just linear mechanical theories of causality - they also point to interrelationship. Assertions of "control" or "no control" ... very narrow views.
What is the difference in meaning between interrelationship and conditionality? How do you think "paccaya" should be translated?

Do you think that D.O. is a narrow view?

"with ignorance (avijjā) as condition, volitional activities (saṅkhāra) come to be." and "from the complete disappearance and cessation of ignorance (avijjā), volitional activities (saṅkhāra) cease".

Saṅkhāra is interrelated to Avijjā like a motion of a leaf is interrelated to the wind that blows it. Now imagine the chaos that would be if the wind blew the leaf to the west (and all physical conditions were set for leaf to be blown west), and the leaf (for no physical reason) flew to the east breaking all physical and aerodynamic rules.


With metta,

Alex
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

tinhtan wrote: Well you missed the point, the pre-requisite condition before listening the Dhamma is to have "appropriate attention - yoniso manasikara" .
According to AN10.61 yoniso manasikara is well after listening to the Dhamma. Before one knows what things are appropriate to examine and has faith in the usefulness of such kind of examination, how can one examine appropriate (rather than inappropriate) things?
avijjāsuttaṃ AN 10.61 wrote: Thus bhikkhus, not associating Great beings leads to listening to the incorrect Teaching. Listening to the incorrect Teaching leads to lack of faith. Lack of faith leads to unwise attention. Unwise attention leads to lack of mindful awareness Lack of mindful awareness leads to unrestrained mental faculties. Unrestrained mental faculties lead to the three misbehaviours. The three misbehaviours lead to the five obstructions. The five obstructions lead to ignorance. Thus these are the supportive conditions for ignorance.
...
Associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention. Wise attention leads to mindful awareness Mindful awareness leads to restrained mental faculties. Restrained mental faculties lead to the three right behaviours. The three right behaviours lead to the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness lead to the seven enlightenment factors. The seven enlightenment factors lead to knowledge and release. Thus these are the supportive conditions for knowledge and release.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you see step by step progression? Do you think it is possible to skip over some parts?

"like water from the big drops of rain, that fall on top of the mountains coming down to the lowlands fill up mountain creeks and streams. They in turn fill up the small rivers and the huge rivers and fill up the great ocean. And that water becomes the supportive condition for the ocean." - AN 10.61



With metta,

Alex
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:1) Saṅkhāra are conditioned by Avijjā.
2) Avijjā, not "choice", is the condition for volitional activities/fabrications/saṅkhāra.

3) saṅkhāra compared to its condition, Avijjā, is like "a leaf being blown by the wind".


Where is the choice involved?

4) Do saṅkhāra's have a choice to be like this or like that?
No.
5) Avijjā causes saṅkhāra's to arise or cease. It is the wind that blows saṅkhāra's around like "wind blowing the leaf cause it to fly here or there". . . .
Because ignorance conditions saṅkhāra, there is no way that could it be choice that gives rise to awakening, the opposite of ignorance, being that ignorance is the conditioning basis of the kamma conditiongs, saṅkhāra. So, how did the self awakened Buddha become awakened if what is required is an outside influence? Before there was a Buddha of any sort, what was the cause of awakening if there is no choice and X always leads to Y? God? Accident?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:1) Saṅkhāra are conditioned by Avijjā.
2) Avijjā, not "choice", is the condition for volitional activities/fabrications/saṅkhāra.

3) saṅkhāra compared to its condition, Avijjā, is like "a leaf being blown by the wind".


Where is the choice involved?

4) Do saṅkhāra's have a choice to be like this or like that?
No.
5) Avijjā causes saṅkhāra's to arise or cease. It is the wind that blows saṅkhāra's around like "wind blowing the leaf cause it to fly here or there". . . .
Because ignorance conditions saṅkhāra, there is no way that could it be choice that gives rise to awakening, the opposite of ignorance, being that ignorance is the conditioning basis of the kamma conditiongs, saṅkhāra. So, how did the self awakened Buddha become awakened if what is required is an outside influence? Before there was a Buddha of any sort, what was the cause of awakening if there is no choice and X always leads to Y? God? Accident?

Not every moment of consciousness for worldling contains only ignorance, but when ignorance arises - it invariably conditions saṅkhāra and all that follows.

Please don't forget that outside factors can influence worldling's knowledge or ignorance.


"Associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention..." - AN10.61, and these things weaken ignorance.

Bodhisatta in his former lives has met great beings such as Buddha Kassapa, so some of his knowledge were from those sources.


With metta,

Alex
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:"Associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention..." - AN10.61, and these things weaken ignorance.
So, choice plays a pivotal role in awakening.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:1) Saṅkhāra are conditioned by Avijjā.
2) Avijjā, not "choice", is the condition for volitional activities/fabrications/saṅkhāra.

3) saṅkhāra compared to its condition, Avijjā, is like "a leaf being blown by the wind".


Where is the choice involved?

4) Do saṅkhāra's have a choice to be like this or like that?
No.
5) Avijjā causes saṅkhāra's to arise or cease. It is the wind that blows saṅkhāra's around like "wind blowing the leaf cause it to fly here or there". . . .
Because ignorance conditions saṅkhāra, there is no way that could it be choice that gives rise to awakening, the opposite of ignorance, being that ignorance is the conditioning basis of the kamma conditiongs, saṅkhāra. So, how did the self awakened Buddha become awakened if what is required is an outside influence? Before there was a Buddha of any sort, what was the cause of awakening if there is no choice and X always leads to Y? God? Accident?

Not every moment of consciousness for worldling contains only ignorance. Outside factors can influence worldling's knowledge or ignorance.

Please don't forget that outside factors can influence worldling's knowledge or ignorance.


"Associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention..." - AN10.61, and these things weaken ignorance.

Bodhisatta in his former lives has met great beings such as Buddha Kassapa, so some of his knowledge were from those sources.


With metta,

Alex
Does not answer the question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:"Associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention..." - AN10.61, and these things weaken ignorance.
So, choice plays a pivotal role in awakening.
What are the causes for that "choice" and for whom is there this "choice"?

Why was X vs Y choice made? What motivated it, and what was the cause for motivation?


1) If choice arises due to causes, then causes dictate the choice. So the choice is not real choice, but merely a "leaf being blown in the wind".
2) If choice doesn't arise due to causes, then it is not free choice either. There was no cause to make it arise. It just randomly appeared. This has no control as well. No control in either case.

Choice as an effect of its causes, does exist. But it is not a choice in the sense of free full choice.

With metta,

Alex
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:Does not answer the question.

What question? If ignorance only leads to sankharas, then how can one break that cycle?

1) Outside influence that injects wisdom helps to break this cycle.
2) The more Dhamma one hears, the more wisdom (or potential for wisdom) is accumulated and ignorance is weakened more and more.
3) For some, not every moment of consciousness contains avijja. Thus avijja isn't always operating in real time. The trick is to gain enough wisdom to counteract avijja.


With metta,

Alex
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:"Associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention..." - AN10.61, and these things weaken ignorance.
So, choice plays a pivotal role in awakening.
What are the causes for that "choice" and for whom is there this "choice"?

Why was X vs Y choice made? What motivated it, and what was the cause for motivation? No control in either case.
You'd have to ask the individual involved, it would seem. As for "control" this has been discussed at length and you have avoided addressing the issue.
Choice as an effect of its causes, does exist. But it is not a choice in the sense of free full choice.
Finally, coming to my point of view. Choice requires viable of options that are in play. And it is the teaching of choice that the Buddha used as a basis treading the path in exhortation to do good and avoid bad. If there was no real choice there would be no need for such exhortations choosing good over bad. Slowly, you seem to be getting it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote:Hi Kirk5a,
kirk5a wrote: Ahh thanks for the reminder that dependent origination and anatta are not just linear mechanical theories of causality - they also point to interrelationship. Assertions of "control" or "no control" ... very narrow views.
What is the difference in meaning between interrelationship and conditionality? How do you think "paccaya" should be translated?

Do you think that D.O. is a narrow view?
Do you see what I have said as "taking a position" which I am now obligated to defend?
Because I see it as an encouragement to abandon clinging to views and open to reality.
An encouragement definitely for my own consumption, and if it should benefit others, bonus.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

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tiltbillings wrote: Finally, coming to my point of view. Choice requires viable of options that are in play. And it is the teaching of choice that the Buddha used as a basis treading the path in exhortation to do good and avoid bad. If there was no real choice there would be no need for such exhortations choosing good over bad. Slowly, you seem to be getting it.
I have been talking in this and other thread about the choice that is fully conditioned like "a leaf being blown by the wind". Do you agree?


Because of cause-effect, the good actions lead to good result, and unwholesome actions lead to unwholesome result. Good actions only lead to good results, and bad actions lead only to bad results. Hard determinism does not reject ethics or kamma. On the contrary, hard determinism affirms the power of kamma and results that it can bring.

Kamma and results of kamma does not require a Self, Choice, or control.
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does not answer the question.

What question? If ignorance only leads to sankharas, then how can one break that cycle?

1) Outside influence that injects wisdom helps to break this cycle.
2) The more Dhamma one hears, the more wisdom (or potential for wisdom) is accumulated and ignorance is weakened more and more.
3) For some, not every moment of consciousness contains avijja. Thus avijja isn't always operating in real time. The trick is to gain enough wisdom to counteract avijja.


With metta,

Alex
How was the first Buddha awakened? Outside influence? Nothing he did himself? Where does he say that about his awakening that he made no choices in his quest for awakening? Doing nothing himself is not the story the Buddha told of his own awakening. His story is a story of choice and personal action.

"I [the Buddha] am an all-transcender, an All-knower, unsullied in all
ideas, renouncing all, by craving ceasing freed, and this I owe to my
own insight. To whom should I point?"
- Dhammapada 353

If avijja is not operating, not always in play, then there are choices that can be made from wholesome roots, altering the conditioning in a positive way, which is what the Buddha taught, which is consistent with the quotes of the Buddha I gave and which you ignored.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Finally, coming to my point of view. Choice requires viable of options that are in play. And it is the teaching of choice that the Buddha used as a basis treading the path in exhortation to do good and avoid bad. If there was no real choice there would be no need for such exhortations choosing good over bad. Slowly, you seem to be getting it.
I have been talking in this and other thread about the choice that is fully conditioned like "a leaf being blown by the wind". Do you agree?
Choice is not like a leaf blown in the wind. A leaf exerts no influence on where it goes.

Because of cause-effect, the good actions lead to good result, and unwholesome actions lead to unwholesome result. Good actions only lead to good results, and bad actions lead only to bad results.
And the Buddha clearly indicated that we can choose either good or bad. In our ability to choose, to alter our conditioning by our choices, we are not like a leaf blown in the wind. A leaf blown in the wind has no choice but to be blown where the outside force blows it. That is not what the Buddha taught. What he taught, clearly, is that we can alter our conditioning by using the very process by the choices we make.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

And don't forget, Alex, that this msg still await your response:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p100630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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