Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

Dear robertk,

so does that insight comes by it self or is it forced/choose? Or is dukkha insight?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is playing with words. If there is no person, then there is no practice.
Actually there is not and never was any person. There is however dukkha and the path leading to the ending of dukkha.
Not quite true. For us unawakened folk there is a self with which we have to contend which does not completely go away until we are fully awakened. Even a mirage has a reality that may need to be dealt with. Also, practice and suffering have no essence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:Dear robertk,

so does that insight comes by it self or is it forced/choose? Or is dukkha insight?
Or may be inisight arises as a result of conditioning brought about by the choices we make. That is what the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5611
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by robertk »

"
Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise:

1. the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed, and

2. the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas

3. "I can perform" and 4) "I can feel"

Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.

This is from the preface to the book of elements in the abhidhamma pitaka
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:"
Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise:

1. the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed, and

2. the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas

3. "I can perform" and 4) "I can feel"

Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.

This is from the preface to the book of elements in the abhidhamma pitaka
There you go. The self that has to be dealt with until we are awakened. Cannot wish it away, but must see into its nature via vipassana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

*dancing the monkey dance*
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

The monkey needs to calm itself down, though according to Alex, that is impossible.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:Hi Mike, all,
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,
I'm not sure exactly who or what you are still arguing with.
:anjali:
Mike
Idea of an Agent, and idea of free choice that is done (by what amounts to being an Agent).


With metta,

Alex
Geez, Alex, the Buddha did not teach the idea of an unconditioned - in absolute control - “Agent” thingie, nor did he teach free - unconditioned - choice.

As for the issue of control, Geoff neatly responded to it:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p100052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your response, as usual, missed what Geoff said and went off on a tangent, which is a favorite tactic of yours for not directly addressing a response to something you said.

The issue of control of the khandhas has been directly addressed in the other thread, which you then tried to side step. There are aspects of the khandhas that are out of our control - the fact that there is change is the primary one. One cannot will or wish away change. Nor can one wish or will away ignorance, because that would run against the conditioned nature of the khandhas. All the examples the Buddha gave in terms of control based upon an unconditioned Atman/Self thingie and are examples that run against the truth of anicca and conditionality.

On the other hand the Buddha was quite direct about what we can do when we choose to work within laws conditionality, as the Buddha discovered them and taught:

Dhp 375. Control of the senses [indriyagutti], contentment, restraint according to the code of monastic discipline — these form the basis of holy life here for the wise monk.

Unlike the “control” based upon the assumption of a permanent Atman/Self thingie and rejected by the Buddha, there is nothing in the control of the senses, as the Buddha taught, that is outside of the Buddha’s teachings of conditionality.
He keeps watch over his faculty of sight and he attains to mastery over it. - DN I 70.

Dhp 362. He who has control over his hands, feet and tongue; who is fully controlled, delights in inward development, is absorbed in meditation, keeps to himself and is contented — him do people call a monk.

363. That monk who has control over his tongue, is moderate in speech, unassuming and who explains the Teaching in both letter and spirit — whatever he says is pleasing.

364. The monk who abides in the Dhamma, delights in the Dhamma, meditates on the Dhamma, and bears the Dhamma well in mind — he does not fall away from the sublime Dhamma.
All of this is clearly grounded in direct action - choices - taken by the monk.
Dhp 157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night.

158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain.

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another.

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.
And here, without recourse to an unchanging Atman/Self thingie, we have direct action grounded in choice being clearly taught by the Buddha. It is what one does that matters. If one does this . . .; one should do that . . . ; by one’s self is an action done. There is not a thing here that suggests that it is just all mechanical causation.

Because we are not enmeshed in a mechanical causality where no choice is possible, rather because we find ourselves in a dynamic flow of conditionality, how we choose to act is what is central to the Path: "This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond." - SN I, 38.

If we were dealing with mechanical causality, we would be dealing with essences, atmans/attas, which would be the only basis for a total invariability of a mechanical causality. It would be, as the Buddha stated, falling “ back on what was done in the past as being essential” {AN 3.61}. The Buddha, on the other hand, taught conditionality, which does not require self-existence, does not require falling “ back on what was done in the past as being essential”. This is clearly seen in the pivotal Kaccaayanagotto Sutta. Conditionality is open to the possibility of the alteration of the conditions by the conditioning influence of choice - kamma, intended action. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Buddha’s teachings? If the core of the Buddha’s teachings were just mechanical causality, the Path would be a lie. There would be no way to attain it and the Buddha’s exhortations, as quoted above, would be a lie because there would be no way to act on them.

“From the arising of this comes the arising of that.”
“From the arising of choice comes the arising of choosing.”
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

The monkey needs to calm itself down, though according to Alex, that is impossible.
Yes sir :-) As we have now the choice to do vipassana, I thought it would be nice to honore all beings which teaches and lead us to vipassana! Not wast your merits, you had much that you could came in touch with it. Uncountable beings will not have it in there lifes.

_/\_
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Kim OHara »

Kim O'Hara wrote:Strict determinism rules out free will.
The Buddha taught us to *choose* between skillful and unskillful actions.
Therefore the Buddha did not teach strict determinism.
... I think.
:namaste:
Kim
tiltbillings wrote:Conditionality is open to the possibility of the alteration of the conditions by the conditioning influence of choice - kamma, intended action. Otherwise, what would be the point of the Buddha’s teachings? If the core of the Buddha’s teachings were just mechanical causality, the Path would be a lie. There would be no way to attain it and the Buddha’s exhortations, as quoted above, would be a lie because there would be no way to act on them.
8.png
8.png (22.49 KiB) Viewed 3523 times
:namaste:
Kim
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Individual »

tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote: Thats why he teaches sometimes that and sometimes that :-) mind is tricky
Damdifino what you just said.
alan wrote:Hamzze serves as comic relief. A useful function.
Allow me to translate:

If there is no self-thinking in the first place, there is no need for practice because suffering is dependent on self-thinking. For some people, they start with the cessation of self-thinking and therefore practice. For others, they practice first and in that practice there is the cessation of self-thinking. Therefore, sometimes the Buddha teaches our minds are conditioned by ignorance, while other times he teaches they are luminous. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hanzee,
Hanzze wrote:Dear robertk,
so does that insight comes by it self or is it forced/choose? Or is dukkha insight?
I am not RobertK, but I'll answer it. It comes due to causes and conditions, such as listening & considering the Dhamma.

One is not fated to remain permanently in samsara. If wisdom is developed, then the process will eventually disband and parinibbana will be achieved. No Fatalism here.

tiltbillings wrote:The monkey needs to calm itself down, though according to Alex, that is impossible.
If the proper conditions happen, then it will stop. In any case, restlessness is impermanent and will pass.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Tilt, all,
tiltbillings wrote:Geez, Alex, the Buddha did not teach the idea of an unconditioned - in absolute control - “Agent” thingie, nor did he teach free - unconditioned - choice.
If the choice in not a "thing of an Agent", nor is it unconditioned - then choice is conditioned like "a leaf being blown by the wind". There can be many dynamic causes for the choice, but in essence it still means that choice is an effect of those causes and not something that happens on "its own and solely due to itself" or as what an Agent does.
tiltbillings wrote: As for the issue of control, Geoff neatly responded to it:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p100052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your response, as usual, missed what Geoff said and went off on a tangent, which is a favorite tactic of yours for not directly addressing a response to something you said.
My way is to discuss about general idea about "control", rather than specific instances of teachings that sound as if there is control. If there is no control (in free will sense) at all, then all sutta quotes do not talk about control out of free choice, but control that happens due to causes, and control that is like ""a leaf being blown by the wind".

tiltbillings wrote: The issue of control of the khandhas has been directly addressed in the other thread, which you then tried to side step. There are aspects of the khandhas that are out of our control - the fact that there is change is the primary one. One cannot will or wish away change. Nor can one wish or will away ignorance, because that would run against the conditioned nature of the khandhas.
If one can't wish or will away ignorance, then one can't will or wish away that which is caused by ignorance, namely saṅkhāra. And Saṅkhāra includes all choice, intention and will.

" From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications". avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā - Ud1.3 and many suttas.


tiltbillings wrote: Dhp 375. Control of the senses [indriyagutti], contentment, restraint according to the code of monastic discipline — these form the basis of holy life here for the wise monk.

Unlike the “control” based upon the assumption of a permanent Atman/Self thingie and rejected by the Buddha, there is nothing in the control of the senses, as the Buddha taught, that is outside of the Buddha’s teachings of conditionality.
If there is nothing in the "control of the senses, as the Buddha taught, that is outside of the Buddha’s teachings of conditionality. " then control of the senses is conditioned like "a leaf being blown by the wind"

tiltbillings wrote: Because we are not enmeshed in a mechanical causality where no choice is possible, rather because we find ourselves in a dynamic flow of conditionality, how we choose to act is what is central to the Path: "This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond." - SN I, 38.
I thought that you've said that everything is conditioned and nothing lies outside of the Buddha’s teachings of conditionality ?

Conditionality is conditionality. It can be complex and dynamic, but for all intents and purposes it is the same. Conditions dictate results.
tiltbillings wrote: If we were dealing with mechanical causality, we would be dealing with essences, atmans/attas, which would be the only basis for a total invariability of a mechanical causality. It would be, as the Buddha stated, falling “ back on what was done in the past as being essential
That wrong view missess the point that during this life there can be new causes (such as hearing true Dhamma) injected that will alter the development of cause-effect stream that we call "this or that person". So "one" is not doomed to spiral downhill, and liberation is possible.
tiltbillings wrote:
Otherwise, what would be the point of the Buddha’s teachings?
To inject wholesome conditions for wisdom to arise, and alter the course of that cause-effect stream we call a person.
tiltbillings wrote: If the core of the Buddha’s teachings were just mechanical causality, the Path would be a lie.


Quite the opposite. By hearing and understanding the Dhamma, the path will emerge and will have no other choice but to eventually result in parinibbana.

tiltbillings wrote:“From the arising of this comes the arising of that.”
“From the arising of choice comes the arising of choosing.”

And from arising of what does choice arise? Or does it arise spontaneously and unconditionally?


With metta,

Alex
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Individual »

Alex123 wrote: If one can't wish or will away ignorance, then one can't will or wish away that which is caused by ignorance, namely saṅkhāra. And Saṅkhāra includes all choice, intention and will.

" From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications". avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā - Ud1.3 and many suttas.
Let's be clear here by what we mean by "requisite condition." Ignorance is a sufficient condition for fabrications, but it is not a necessary condition. The same applies to all the factors of dependent origination. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Individual,
Individual wrote:
Alex123 wrote: If one can't wish or will away ignorance, then one can't will or wish away that which is caused by ignorance, namely saṅkhāra. And Saṅkhāra includes all choice, intention and will.

" From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications". avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā - Ud1.3 and many suttas.
Let's be clear here by what we mean by "requisite condition." Ignorance is a sufficient condition for fabrications, but it is not a necessary condition. The same applies to all the factors of dependent origination. :)
It seems to me you have your terminology backwards. When ignorance ceases fabrications cease (and the whole DO sequence). That, it seems to me, makes ignorance a necessary condition. Or am I misunderstanding your wording?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... #dependent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Mike
Post Reply