Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

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Phena
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Phena » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:45 am

robertk wrote:
Phena wrote:
robertk wrote:His argument against govt. restrictions on abortion are based on freedom of choice and keeping govt. out of it...Fair enough.

I think the Venerable's point was more keeping religion out of it.

A quote I heard and like, which I think sums this up, goes something like, "we should have freedom of religion and freedom from religion".


I think all countries, no matter religious or not, have laws against killing humans.
So I don't follow the reasoning that restricting abortion is bringing religion in?

I'll quote Ven. Bodhi again just so it is clear that my above post does indeed reflect what he has said:
Those who oppose abortion on religious grounds should not be entitled to use government policy to impose the entailments of their beliefs on others.

Bhikkhu Bodhi is clearly arguing for a secular society where religious beliefs (particularity on one group over another) are not imposed on citizens via a government. I agree with this most emphatically. Non-secular governments have proven to be a failure and quite often despotic.

I do not know of any examples where abortion has been restricted that were not influenced by religious groups.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:19 am

Phena wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi is clearly arguing for a secular society where religious beliefs (particularity on one group over another) are not imposed on citizens via a government. I agree with this most emphatically. Non-secular governments have proven to be a failure and quite often despotic.

I do not know of any examples where abortion has been restricted that were not influenced by religious groups.


Sometimes I think people use the term 'religion' in a disparaging way. What is key in the debate is the worldview aspect of religion, not whether people light incense or go to church. Humanism (isn't that a misnomer ), as Coëmgenu explained, is just as much a worldview as Buddhism.

If people believe there is no kamma, no rebirth and that killing a fetus is not an issue - that is their worldview, just as much as the worldview of Buddhists is the opposite.
The fact that Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with the Buddhist view, probably knows the massive number of abortions each year, yet feels that Trump shouldn't be trying to restrict abortion at all is of course a view that he is entitled to.

I think secular governments also have issues. Russia, China and Cambodia all had killings in the millions(leaving aside abortion) as part of Communist rule (of course communism is a worldview).

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Mr Man » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:10 am

robertk wrote:
If people believe there is no kamma, no rebirth and that killing a fetus is not an issue - that is their worldview, just as much as the worldview of Buddhists is the opposite.


I'm not sure that there are many who would say "killing a fetus is not an issue".

Phena
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Phena » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:02 am

robertk wrote:The fact that Bhikkhu Bodhi agrees with the Buddhist view, probably knows the massive number of abortions each year, yet feels that Trump shouldn't be trying to restrict abortion at all is of course a view that he is entitled to.

You seem to be reacting to the fact the Ven. Bodhi believes secular elected governments are more effective at handling these matters than non-secular entities. I believe he would have given this careful consideration and is a wise position to take in light of the pitfalls of religious governments.

robertk wrote:I think secular governments also have issues. Russia, China and Cambodia all had killings in the millions(leaving aside abortion) as part of Communist rule (of course communism is a worldview).

The above countries are all (or were) dictatorships and are therefore poor examples.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:41 am

Phena wrote:You seem to be reacting to the fact the Ven. Bodhi believes secular elected governments are more effective at handling these matters than non-secular entities. I believe he would have given this careful consideration and is a wise position to take in light of the pitfalls of religious governments.

.

umm i don't follow.

do you mean that before roe v wade - when the USA had tighter restrictions on abortion- that they had a religious government?

my view is that "secular" is just another word for a worldview. If buddhists like Bodhi believe, as he does, that abortion is killing of a human , how can he not be appalled by the carnage each year.

To me - my opinion- this is just as problematic as his worry about gay rights (possibly, not certain) suffering under Trump.

ieee23
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby ieee23 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:59 pm

I would have preferred that this thread have been posted to the News subboard as I am a member of the group that has news disappeared from my feed here. Especially these days, I don't come here to see politics.

No offense to Paul, the OP

[Admin note: We've since created a Hot Topics area in the News forum and moved this topic there... so the author of this post should no longer see this topic. If you too wish to filter out News topics from your Dhamma Wheel experience see here]

Phena
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Phena » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:29 pm

robertk wrote:my view is that "secular" is just another word for a worldview.

Yes, and what of it? Who cares if this is just another worldview, governments are worldly by their nature and should remain that way. So Let's leave the governing to elected secular governments without interference from religious groups running their own agendas, so that the citizens are not lumbered with the religious values of others. Now, if we wish to apply the dhamma (or any other spiritual path) at an individual level, then we should just get on with it and do this without interference. This in my opinion is how it should work and is also what Bhikkhu Bodhi is advocating.

"Freedom of religion and freedom from religion" is essentially an expression of this principle.

SarathW
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby SarathW » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:49 pm

Is Bhikkhu Bodhi clinging to a view?
:thinking:

=============
Maybe we cling to a view of who created this universe. Whatever it is we cling to, even how the government should run the country, all of that makes it extremely difficult to see things as they really are. To be open-minded. And it is only an open mind which can take in new ideas and understanding.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Phena
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Phena » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:31 am

SarathW wrote:Is Bhikkhu Bodhi clinging to a view?
:thinking:

=============
Maybe we cling to a view of who created this universe. Whatever it is we cling to, even how the government should run the country, all of that makes it extremely difficult to see things as they really are. To be open-minded. And it is only an open mind which can take in new ideas and understanding.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html

Perhaps you should only be concerned about your view-clinging and not the Venerables.

chownah
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:39 am

SarathW wrote:Is Bhikkhu Bodhi clinging to a view?
:thinking:

=============
Maybe we cling to a view of who created this universe. Whatever it is we cling to, even how the government should run the country, all of that makes it extremely difficult to see things as they really are. To be open-minded. And it is only an open mind which can take in new ideas and understanding.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl095.html

Do you think there is any way that we could know of the condition of bhikkhu bodhi's clinginess?
chownah

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby robertk » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:11 am

Phena wrote:
robertk wrote:my view is that "secular" is just another word for a worldview.

Yes, and what of it? Who cares if this is just another worldview, governments are worldly by their nature and should remain that way. So Let's leave the governing to elected secular governments without interference from religious groups running their own agendas, so that the citizens are not lumbered with the religious values of others. Now, if we wish to apply the dhamma (or any other spiritual path) at an individual level, then we should just get on with it and do this without interference. This in my opinion is how it should work and is also what Bhikkhu Bodhi is advocating.

"Freedom of religion and freedom from religion" is essentially an expression of this principle.

Do you think ethics is somehow devoid of worldview. In his article Bodhi writes
I must oppose policies detrimental to these ideals. I see politics, not merely as a naked contest for power and domination, but as a stage where great ethical contests are being waged, contests that determine the destiny - for good or for ill - of everyone in this country and on this planet.
Trump’s presidential campaign challenged each of the ethical ideals I cherish, and if he acts upon his campaign pledges, his policies may entail misery for people in the United States and all across the world


Is abortion policy related to ethics would you say?

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Mr Man » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:21 pm

It would be interesting to hear what those who think that abortion should be criminalised, think with respect to who should be prosecuted and on what charges and what the sentencing would be?

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Jetavan
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Jetavan » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:15 pm

robertk wrote:
Still there are over 800,000 abortions each year in the USA, and if Trump was able to reduce that number by even 10% then over the course of his presidency 320,000 lives would be spared, in that 4 year period alone.


According to the CDC, in 2013, the abortion ratio was 200 abortions per 1000 live births; in 2008, the ratio was 234 abortions per 1000 live births. Thus, from 2013 to 2008 the ratio decreased by 34 abortions per 1000 live births, a decrease of 14% in the abortion ratio.

The number of abortions was 825,000 in 2008; and 664,000 in 2013. That would be a decrease of 20% in the number of abortions.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby robertk » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:04 pm

Jetavan wrote:
robertk wrote:
Still there are over 800,000 abortions each year in the USA, and if Trump was able to reduce that number by even 10% then over the course of his presidency 320,000 lives would be spared, in that 4 year period alone.


According to the CDC, in 2013, the abortion ratio was 200 abortions per 1000 live births; in 2008, the ratio was 234 abortions per 1000 live births. Thus, from 2013 to 2008 the ratio decreased by 34 abortions per 1000 live births, a decrease of 14% in the abortion ratio.

The number of abortions was 825,000 in 2008; and 664,000 in 2013. That would be a decrease of 20% in the number of abortions.

The CDC admits that the numbers it reports are grossly lower than the actual numbers. in the CDC 2011 report ( the latest I can find online) they state
L
imitations
The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, because reporting requirements are established by the individual reporting areas (18), the collection of data varies, and CDC is unable to obtain the total number of abortions performed in the United States. During the period covered by this report, the total annual number of abortions reported to CDC was consistently approximately 70% of the number recorded by the Guttmacher Institute (14,61), which uses numerous active follow-up techniques to increase the completeness of the data obtained through its periodic national census of abortion providers (14). Although most reporting areas collect and send abortion data to CDC, this information is submitted to CDC voluntarily. Consequently, during 2002–2011, six of the 52 reporting areas did not provide CDC data on a consistent annual basis, and for 2011, CDC did not obtain any information from California, Maryland, or New Hampshire.***** In addition, whereas most reporting areas that send abortion data to CDC have laws requiring medical providers to submit a report for every abortion they perform to a central health agency, in New Jersey and the District of Columbia, medical providers submit this information voluntarily (17). As a result, the abortion numbers these areas report to CDC are incomplete.††††† Moreover, even in states that legally require medical providers to submit a report for all the abortions they perform, enforcement of this requirement varies (62). Consequently, several other reporting areas tend to provide CDC with incomplete numbers

the much more comprehensive GUttmacher institute report gives figures of over 1 million in 2011. https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/i ... ted-states

in 2015 the most reliable estimates give figures over 800,000.

santa100
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby santa100 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:49 pm

in 2015 the most reliable estimates give figures over 800,000.

And compare to some number to put it in perspective:

1. Firearms-related deaths in US: ~ 30,000 (ref: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm )

2. Deaths in the Syrian civil war: ~ 400,000 (ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualtie ... _Civil_War )

3. Deaths during the Rwandan genocide of 1994: ~ 800,000 (ref: http://survivors-fund.org.uk/resources/ ... tatistics/ )

Apparently it's on par or even surpass many horrific genocides in modern history!

[edited to clarify abortion and genocide definitions]
Last edited by santa100 on Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Mr Man » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:08 pm

santa100 wrote:
Apparently it's on par or even surpass other horrific genocides in modern history!


Genocide has rather a specific meaning doesn't it?

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Jetavan
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby Jetavan » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:08 pm

robertk wrote:
Jetavan wrote:
robertk wrote:
the much more comprehensive GUttmacher institute report gives figures of over 1 million in 2011. https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/i ... ted-states


True, but even the Guttmacher Institute notes that in 2011, the U.S. abortion rate reached its lowest level since 1973, thanks largely to contraceptive use.

As long as Trump keeps contraception available, then a decrease in the abortion rate would be an expected outcome--regardless of whether Trump succeeds at overturning Roe v. Wade.

santa100
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby santa100 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:
santa100 wrote:
Apparently it's on par or even surpass other horrific genocides in modern history!


Genocide has rather a specific meaning doesn't it?


Of course abortion and genocide have their own standard definition. However, the numbers when put together are still quite astounding nevertheless.

paul
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Re: Bhikkhu Bodhi responds to Trump victory

Postby paul » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:53 am

Hopes for an early meeting between Trump and Dalai Lama:

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/OSobAx ... Lobsa.html


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