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Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:59 am
by buddhajunkie
What do the words "constricted", "scattered". "enlarged" and "surpassed" mean in MN10?
When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed.

Also, since the passage on Mind pairs objects with it's absence (such as "passion" and "without passion"), it seems like "constricted" should be the opposite of "scattered." Is this right? It would seem to be a strange break of the pattern otherwise.

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:40 pm
by rowyourboat
Constricted refers to the actual feeling of what the mind feels like when it is focused upon, when it is sleepy.

Scattered refers to a mind which is full of thoughts (the opposite of unified).

Enlarged refers to a mind which is 'stretched' if you like, to cover what feels like a vast space - in the divine abodes or the arupa jhana, IMO.

Surpassed is a mind which is in the jhanas.

:namaste:

with metta

Matheesha

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:49 pm
by mikenz66
Constricted/scattered does appear to be an "odd pair out", in that both members of the pair seem to be negative qualities, whereas the other pairs are negative/positive qualities (with and without aversion, etc).

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:06 pm
by bodom
mikenz66 wrote:Constricted/scattered does appear to be an "odd pair out", in that both members of the pair seem to be negative qualities, whereas the other pairs are negative/positive qualities (with and without aversion, etc).

:anjali:
Mike
In Goenka's Discourses on Satipatthana he actually translates sankhitta, here translated as constricted, as "concentrated" or "collected" and regards it as a wholesome mind state.

:anjali:

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:56 pm
by mikenz66
Hmm, but the second-last pair has concentrated, doesn't it? Hmmm....

Mike

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:31 am
by bodom
mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, but the second-last pair has concentrated, doesn't it? Hmmm....

Mike
Hi Mike

Im not sure myself. Maybe someone with experience in the Goenka tradition would care to comment.

Here is an extract from his Discourses on Satipatthana:
Whether the mind is collected and concentrated (sankhitta) or vikkhitta (scattered)—this is just observed and accepted. In deeper jhānas when the mind is expanded, using imagination, to a limitless area, it is called mahaggata, big. Whether or not it is mahaggata—this is just observed. Sa-uttara means there are higher minds, or scope for development. Anuttara is when there is nothing higher: mind has reached the highest stage. This also is observed. Whether the mind is deeply absorbed in samadhi (samahita) or not is observed. Whether the mind is liberated (vimutta) or in bondage is also observed.
:anjali:

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:30 am
by Ben
Greetings,
Sankhitta

Sankhitta [pp. of sankhipati] 1. concise, brief Miln 227; DhsA 344; instr. sankhittena in short, concisely (opp. vitthārena) Vin i.10; D ii.305; S v.421; Pug 41. Cp. BSk. sankṣiptena Divy 37 etc. -- 2. concentrated, attentive D i.80 (which at Vism 410 however is expld as "thīna -- middh' ânugata"); S ii.122; v.263; D ii.299= M i.59. -- 3. contracted, thin, slender: ˚majjhā of slender waist J v.155. -- Cp. abhi˚.

Source: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :2802.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards

Ben

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:44 am
by bodom
Ben wrote:Greetings,
Sankhitta

Sankhitta [pp. of sankhipati] 1. concise, brief Miln 227; DhsA 344; instr. sankhittena in short, concisely (opp. vitthārena) Vin i.10; D ii.305; S v.421; Pug 41. Cp. BSk. sankṣiptena Divy 37 etc. -- 2. concentrated, attentive D i.80 (which at Vism 410 however is expld as "thīna -- middh' ânugata"); S ii.122; v.263; D ii.299= M i.59. -- 3. contracted, thin, slender: ˚majjhā of slender waist J v.155. -- Cp. abhi˚.

Source: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :2802.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards

Ben
Good find thanks Ben!

:anjali:

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:19 am
by Ben
Its always a pleasure, my friend!

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:43 pm
by rowyourboat
Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu
sarāgaṃ vā cittaṃ sarāgaṃ cittanti pajānāti, vītarāgaṃ vā cittaṃ vītarāgaṃ cittanti pajānāti,
sadosaṃ vā cittaṃ sadosaṃ cittanti pajānāti, vītadosaṃ vā cittaṃ vītadosaṃ cittanti pajānāti,
samohaṃ vā cittaṃ samohaṃ cittanti pajānāti, vītamohaṃ vā cittaṃ vītamohaṃ cittanti pajānāti,
saṅkhittaṃ cittaṃ saṅkhitta cittanti pajānāti, vikkhittaṃ vā cittaṃ vikkhittaṃ cittanti pajānāti,

mahaggataṃ vā cittaṃ mahaggataṃ cittanti pajānāti, amahaggataṃ vā cittaṃ amahaggataṃ cittanti pajānāti,
sauttaraṃ vā cittaṃ sauttaraṃ cittanti pajānāti, anuttaraṃ vā cittaṃ anuttaraṃ cittanti pajānāti,
samāhitaṃ vā cittaṃ samāhitaṃ cittanti pajānāti, asamāhitaṃ vā cittaṃ asamāhitaṃ cittanti pajānāti,
vimuttaṃ vā cittaṃ vimuttaṃ cittanti pajānāti, avimuttaṃ vā cittaṃ avimuttaṃ cittanti pajānāti.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.290" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu following my Teaching knows[49]
the mind accompanied by passion,[50] as 'Mind with passion'; he knows the mind unaccompanied by passion, as 'Mind without passion';
he also knows the mind accompanied by anger,[51] as 'Mind with anger'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by anger, as 'Mind without anger';
he also knows the mind accompanied by bewilderment,[52] as 'Mind with bewilderment'; he also knows the mind unaccompanied by bewilderment, as 'Mind without bewilderment';
he also knows the indolent state of mind,[53] as 'Indolent state of mind'; he also knows the distracted state of mind,[54] as 'Distracted state of mind';
he also knows the developed state of mind,[55] as 'Developed state of mind'; he also knows the undeveloped state of mind,[56] as 'Undeveloped state of mind':
he also knows the inferior state of mind, as 'Inferior state of mind'; he also knows the superior state of mind,[57] as 'Superior state of mind';
he also knows the mind in a state of concentration,[58] as 'Mind in a state of concentration'; he also knows the mind not in a state of concentration,[59] as 'Mind not in a state of concentration';
he also knows 'the liberated state of mind,[60] as 'Liberated state of mind'; he also knows the unliberated state of mind,[61] as 'Unliberated state of mind'.
Burmese Pitaka association translation:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bpit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta

:namaste:

Matheesha

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:08 pm
by tiltbillings
Sankhitta is an interesting word here, carrying two very different meanings, and looking at the text RYB quoted, one could argue that the commentary got it wrong, going for the second meaning rather than the first. What would be the deciding factor is how sankhitta is used elsewhere in the suttas in terms of meditation.

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:52 pm
by ground
buddhajunkie wrote:What do the words "constricted", "scattered". "enlarged" and "surpassed" mean in MN10?
When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed.

Also, since the passage on Mind pairs objects with it's absence (such as "passion" and "without passion"), it seems like "constricted" should be the opposite of "scattered." Is this right? It would seem to be a strange break of the pattern otherwise.
Since "constricted" seems to be controversial I would suggest to take the meaning that appears most appropriate and conducive to you.
For me both, "constricted" and "scattered." have an unwholesome meaning and I would not suggest to replace "constricted" by the term "concentrated" which usually has a wholesome meaning. "constricted" means "being drawn inside", "encapsulated" which I find is negative because IMO the state in between "constricted" and "scattered" ("the middle way") is what should be established while practicing mindfulness.


Kind regards

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:56 pm
by tiltbillings
Sankhitta

Sankhitta [pp. of sankhipati] 1. concise, brief Miln 227; DhsA 344; instr. sankhittena in short, concisely (opp. vitthārena) Vin i.10; D ii.305; S v.421; Pug 41. Cp. BSk. sankṣiptena Divy 37 etc. -- 2. concentrated, attentive D i.80 (which at Vism 410 however is expld as "thīna -- middh' ânugata"); S ii.122; v.263; D ii.299= M i.59. -- 3. contracted, thin, slender: ˚majjhā of slender waist J v.155. -- Cp. abhi˚.
In light of the second meaning and the references given, obviously sankhitta deserves a careful look.
He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted [sankhitta] mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. -- DN i 80 Ven Thanissaro
He knows the narrow mind to ne be narrow [sanhkitta]. He knows the expanded mind to be expanded.... DN i 80 Walshe 106

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:04 pm
by bodom
tiltbillings wrote:
Sankhitta

Sankhitta [pp. of sankhipati] 1. concise, brief Miln 227; DhsA 344; instr. sankhittena in short, concisely (opp. vitthārena) Vin i.10; D ii.305; S v.421; Pug 41. Cp. BSk. sankṣiptena Divy 37 etc. -- 2. concentrated, attentive D i.80 (which at Vism 410 however is expld as "thīna -- middh' ânugata"); S ii.122; v.263; D ii.299= M i.59. -- 3. contracted, thin, slender: ˚majjhā of slender waist J v.155. -- Cp. abhi˚.
In light of the second meaning and the references given, obviously sankhitta deserves a careful look.
He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted [sankhitta] mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. -- DN i 80 Ven Thanissaro
He knows the narrow mind to ne be narrow [sanhkitta]. He knows the expanded mind to be expanded.... DN i 80 Walshe 106
Analayo translates as "contracted".

:anjali:

Re: Mind states in Satipatthana

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:14 pm
by bodom
Bodhi translates as "cramped" and this also from Soma Thera:

Sankhittam cittam = "The shrunken state of consciousness." The conscious state fallen into sloth and torpor. That is called the shrivelled or contracted state of mind.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... sciousness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali: