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"Rise and Fall" How to practice it? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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daverupa
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:08 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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daverupa
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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reflection
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby reflection » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:45 pm

Hi all,

My 2 cents.

Thoughts are a form of fabrication, so to try and find out the non-self of them by thinking it out is like trying to fight fire with fire. It only makes it worse. ;) Of course contemplation is not bad, even useful at times, but insights are to be found behind the conceptual level of thoughts. So one of the things in meditation should be to quiet the mind down. Then one can start to see the "fall" of thoughts and from that experience start to see their non-self. Knowing this more clearly, the mind automatically becomes more silent. So then thoughts can be gone for even longer periods of time.

The same with the other aggregates. You can't concentrate and suddenly decide: Now I'm going to experience the falling away of form, the senses, vedana etc. This happens BECAUSE of the deepened concentration. Then afterward can you reflect on them passing away, not before. So I'm with Ajahn Chah on this one: Satipattana and anapanasati work in unison and aren't really separate things, they are the same.

It's not like one day you are the worst meditatior in the world and the next day you know everything and are totally calm. Apart from the stages of enlightenment, it is mostly a gradual path with insight and calm supporting each other.

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Alex123
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:52 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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daverupa
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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legolas
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby legolas » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:04 am

Getting back to Alex's initial post about "rise & fall" and whether discursive thinking is used. The way I understand things is that jhana as taught in the suttas is actually developed through insight/understanding of one or more aspects of the Buddha's Dhamma. From within jhana the rise & fall of events is clearly discerned. This type of jhana is specific to the Buddha's dispensation as it has right view as one of its causes.

An example of discursive thinking leading to penetration is here.....................

"Monks, there is a four-phrased statement that, when it is recited, a wise man will in no long time learn the meaning through discernment. I will recite it, and you learn it from me.".............................................
..........
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, the Teacher's message is healing & nourishing.'



Such an approach as above obviously requires a degree of familiarisation with and acceptance of the Buddha's teachings and building upon that the Buddha's fourfold statement when contemplated would/could give rise to great joy/delight/gladness the building blocks of Buddhist meditation.

The suttas are littered with such instructions, with no recourse to actual techniques.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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legolas
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"Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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rowyourboat
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 am

I would like to ask the gentlemen here to consider that jhanas (the absorbed type) can arise from both samatha AND vipassana. Sati leads to samadhi. The presence or absence of panna is the difference. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who wasn't able to give rise to jhana. There IS only jhana mentioned in the suttas - without the 'samatha' or 'vipassana' qualification.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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retrofuturist
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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:14 am

Greetings RYB,

That makes sense to me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

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