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Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:11 am
by mikenz66
legolas wrote: Thoughts subsiding/free from......

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... jhana.html
Well, that's the instructions for a "pleasant abiding":
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? ...
A different type of samadhi from the section I quoted.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:24 am
by legolas
mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote: Thoughts subsiding/free from......

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... jhana.html
Well, that's the instructions for a "pleasant abiding":
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? ...
A different type of samadhi from the section I quoted.

:anjali:
Mike
Not if one understands that the four foundations undertaken properly are a basis for jhana and that jhana is the position from which one is able to actually "see" arise & fall as an experential understanding rather than a noting one. Mindfulness only reaches its purest form in the 4th jhana from within which, arise & fall are clearly visible.

Right concentration when explicitly stated is always jhana.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:27 am
by mikenz66
And an even better use for samadhi:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
Of course, a pleasant abiding in the here and now isn't a bad thing, and it seems that such practice can be a useful support for the liberating development...

:anjali:
Mike

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:37 am
by tiltbillings
mikenz66 wrote:And an even better use for samadhi:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
Of course, a pleasant abiding in the here and now isn't a bad thing, and it seems that such practice can be a useful support for the liberating development...

:anjali:
Mike
And, of course, the "vipassana jhanas" should not be dismissed.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:09 am
by legolas
mikenz66 wrote:And an even better use for samadhi:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.
Of course, a pleasant abiding in the here and now isn't a bad thing, and it seems that such practice can be a useful support for the liberating development...

:anjali:
Mike
More than useful.......

"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The whole sutta is an elegant portrayal of jhana and its centrality to the path.

I have never come across the "vipassana jhanas" within the suttas so I cannot comment.
However if by "vipassana jhanas" it is meant jhana from within which mindfulness can be practiced then it is a bit of additional hyperbole - they are just the jhana's as portrayed in the suttas by the Buddha.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:17 pm
by beeblebrox
legolas wrote: Right concentration when explicitly stated is always jhana.
Not always "jhana"... always the proper utilization of the jhanas. I get the impression that this is the important difference many jhana people seem to miss. I think that the jhanas by themselves are nothing special...

:anjali:

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:39 pm
by IanAnd
beeblebrox wrote:
legolas wrote:Not if one understands that the four foundations [establishments; my preference in translation] undertaken properly are a basis for jhana and that jhana is the position from which one is able to actually "see" arise & fall as an experential understanding rather than a noting one. Mindfulness only reaches its purest form in the 4th jhana from within which, arise & fall are clearly visible.

Right concentration when explicitly stated is always jhana.
Not always "jhana"... always the proper utilization of the jhanas. I get the impression that this is the important difference many jhana people seem to miss. I think that the jhanas by themselves are nothing special...
While I understand the distinction being made, if you take what legolas wrote in context and understand it not from the perspective that you presented it in (through isolating one idea stated in one sentence), but from within the context of what was written, the term "right concentration" implies "proper utilization" of the jhanas, don't you think?

And the term "jhana" itself is referencing a special kind of concentration: i.e. "fixed" concentration, in other words that which cannot be interrupted or disturbed by outside phenomena, thus allowing the mind to maintain its point of view free from distracting influences so that appropriate attention can take place.
beeblebrox wrote:I think that the jhanas by themselves are nothing special...
From my perspective of the experience, the term "jhana" is synonymous with the Pali term used by Ajahn Chah and others, namely appana samadhi, which has been translated as "fixed concentration." In this sense, then, the fact that developing the practice of jhana helps one to hone one's ability for being able to remain in a condition of "fixed concentration" on an object necessarily makes them "something special," especially for someone who previously was not able to accomplish fixed concentration on an object without the benefit of a practice in jhana.

That said, though, I can agree with the qualifier "in themselves," in the sense that the jhanas should not be put up on a pedestal as being something inherently difficult to obtain to or foreign to our everyday experience, in themselves nothing particularly special.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:22 pm
by beeblebrox
IanAnd wrote:While I understand the distinction being made, if you take what legolas wrote in context and understand it not from the perspective that you presented it in (through isolating one idea stated in one sentence), but from within the context of what was written, the term "right concentration" implies "proper utilization" of the jhanas, don't you think?
I agree, but this thread is confused, (to me). In some posts Legolas says that thinking is OK (as per the topic of this thread), which I agree with. In other posts, Legolas implies that they shouldn't be suppressed (which I agree with), but abandoned (which I don't agree, since it's still a form of suppression). They just shouldn't be clung to.

Then he brings up the "Right Concentration" as being jhana, with isn't wrong in itself... but why did he bring it up? He also seemed to shift to saying that the "noting" (or thinking) is not ideal... which was Tilt's position that he was arguing against in the first place... it seemed out of blue.

And then it seems to have to do with his problem of the "vipassana jhana." He also mentioned that it's a redundant phrase. To me "vipassana jhana" just means using the jhana correctly. That's basically what I was working from.

I think this thread is just confused. There is more agreement going on in here, than disagreement. It's silly.

:anjali:

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:26 pm
by IanAnd
beeblebrox wrote: I agree, but this thread is confused, (to me). In some posts Legolas says that thinking is OK (as per the topic of this thread), which I agree with. In other posts, Legolas implies that they shouldn't be suppressed (which I agree with), but abandoned (which I don't agree, since it's still a form of suppression). They just shouldn't be clung to.
Ah, I see. I hadn't spent any time reading through the rest of the thread. Just noticed something that I thought needed clarification.
beeblebrox wrote: Then he brings up the "Right Concentration" as being jhana, with isn't wrong in itself... but why did he bring it up? He also seemed to shift to saying that the "noting" (or thinking) is not ideal... which was Tilt's position that he was arguing against in the first place... it seemed out of blue.

And then it seems to have to do with his problem of the "vipassana jhana." He also mentioned that it's a redundant phrase. To me "vipassana jhana" just means using the jhana correctly. That's basically what I was working from.

I think this thread is just confused. There is more agreement going on in here, than disagreement. It's silly.
You may very well have a valid point here. It's kind of par for the course for forums like this. Everyone has a pet point they want to make, and too many chefs spoil the broth. Perhaps your clarification of your position will help to clear the air.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:34 am
by Spiny O'Norman
beeblebrox wrote:
legolas wrote: Not always "jhana"... always the proper utilization of the jhanas.
:anjali:
Do you mean for example the 4th tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta?

Spiny

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:55 am
by legolas
beeblebrox wrote:
IanAnd wrote:While I understand the distinction being made, if you take what legolas wrote in context and understand it not from the perspective that you presented it in (through isolating one idea stated in one sentence), but from within the context of what was written, the term "right concentration" implies "proper utilization" of the jhanas, don't you think?
I agree, but this thread is confused, (to me). In some posts Legolas says that thinking is OK (as per the topic of this thread), which I agree with. In other posts, Legolas implies that they shouldn't be suppressed (which I agree with), but abandoned (which I don't agree, since it's still a form of suppression). They just shouldn't be clung to.

Then he brings up the "Right Concentration" as being jhana, with isn't wrong in itself... but why did he bring it up? He also seemed to shift to saying that the "noting" (or thinking) is not ideal... which was Tilt's position that he was arguing against in the first place... it seemed out of blue.

And then it seems to have to do with his problem of the "vipassana jhana." He also mentioned that it's a redundant phrase. To me "vipassana jhana" just means using the jhana correctly. That's basically what I was working from.

I think this thread is just confused. There is more agreement going on in here, than disagreement. It's silly.

:anjali:
I am sorry, I cannot help you with your confusion. My understanding of meditation according to the suttas is a holistic one so therefore it does not seem inappropriate to bring in such things as the definition of what right concentration is. Your confusion about thinking being abandoned seems a trivial matter. Abandoning/freeing/subsiding take your pick. I thought my point was quite obvious - thinking is important as a way into jhana and establishing a right view - as one progresses thinking subsides or is abandoned, I am sorry if this is confusing. Abandoning is "letting go" not suppression.
In the suttas the preamble to attaining jhana is that the hindrances are abandoned i.e. let go. At this point the commentaries jump up and down and say that this is only temporary and that jhana only suppresses the hindrances. Now this is not what the Buddha says. He says the hindrances are abandoned(let go off) - now this may be a temporary affair(although the hindrances gradually diminish in day to day living through this practise) but the point is that they are abandoned not suppressed. Suppression is a commentarial view.
I was not the one who actually brought up the subject of noting. Whilst "noting" is a form of thought it does not appear to me to be very valuable in gaining an understanding of the dhamma, rather it is an intense concentration exercise - one more likely to result in suppression.
As per vipassana jhana. Would it be possible for you to explain to me the difference between vipassana jhana and the jhana found in the suttas? If there isnt one, then I agree it is silly that there is disagreement, but my confusion arises because calling it vipassana jhana seems to be making it different from what the Buddha was talking about.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:59 am
by Spiny O'Norman
legolas wrote:I was not the one who actually brought up the subject of noting. Whilst "noting" is a form of thought it does not appear to me to be very valuable in gaining an understanding of the dhamma, rather it is an intense concentration exercise - one more likely to result in suppression.
I'd say noting is basically an aid to mindfulness, and consistent with the Satipatthana Sutta. There's no judgement or suppression involved, it's just observing what's there.

Spiny
:focus:

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:03 am
by tiltbillings
legolas wrote: In the suttas the preamble to attaining jhana is that the hindrances are abandoned i.e. let go. At this point the commentaries jump up and down and say that this is only temporary and that jhana only suppresses the hindrances.
And what commentaries say this?
Now this is not what the Buddha says. He says the hindrances are abandoned(let go off) - now this may be a temporary affair(although the hindrances gradually diminish in day to day living through this practise) but the point is that they are abandoned not suppressed. Suppression is a commentarial view.
And exactly how do the jhanas "abandon" the hindrances permanantely, which is what you seem to be say that they do?
I was not the one who actually brought up the subject of noting. Whilst "noting" is a form of thought it does not appear to me to be very valuable in gaining an understanding of the dhamma, rather it is an intense concentration exercise - one more likely to result in suppression.
Not at all.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:56 am
by legolas
tiltbillings wrote:And what commentaries say this?
And exactly how do the jhanas "abandon" the hindrances permanantely, which is what you seem to be say that they do?
Not at all.
Saratthappakasini, Samyutta Nikaya-atthakatha.

This is a complete misrepresentation -please read my post again. I never said that jhanas alone, "abandon" the hindrances permanantely.

If you believe that "noting" is not a concentration exercise, that is cool.

Re: "Rise and Fall" How to practice it?

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:17 pm
by beeblebrox
legolas wrote: I am sorry, I cannot help you with your confusion. My understanding of meditation according to the suttas is a holistic one so therefore it does not seem inappropriate to bring in such things as the definition of what right concentration is. Your confusion about thinking being abandoned seems a trivial matter. Abandoning/freeing/subsiding take your pick. I thought my point was quite obvious - thinking is important as a way into jhana and establishing a right view - as one progresses thinking subsides or is abandoned, I am sorry if this is confusing. Abandoning is "letting go" not suppression.
That's not where the confusion is. I actually agree with everything that you say above. Look:
beeblebrox wrote: [. . .] In some posts Legolas says that thinking is OK (as per the topic of this thread), which I agree with. In other posts, Legolas implies that they shouldn't be suppressed (which I agree with), but abandoned (which I don't agree, since it's still a form of suppression). They just shouldn't be clung to.
I agreed that thinking is OK. I agreed that suppressing shouldn't be done. I disagreed with "abandoning," but only because I define that as suppression.

I said that there should be no clinging (which I also define as being able to let go), which in turn is what you defined "abandoning" as... this means that WE BOTH AGREE, on all of the relevant points.

If I follow your definition of abandoning, I have no problem with it. If you follow my definition, would you also have a problem with it, like me? I think so... because of according to what you said about the suppression.

Can we apply this to the words "vipassana jhana" and even "noting"? It's obvious some people define them differently than you do, but I'm pretty sure that if you saw what their definitions actually were, you'd pretty much agree. That's why I said this thread was confused... and I think it's pretty much due to clinging.

We should try to abandon this ignorance (of other people's definitions) right now... it's a defilement. I don't care about what other people's definitions are (must be the Zen in me)... only knowing about what actually leads to the liberation.
As per vipassana jhana. Would it be possible for you to explain to me the difference between vipassana jhana and the jhana found in the suttas? If there isnt one, then I agree it is silly that there is disagreement, but my confusion arises because calling it vipassana jhana seems to be making it different from what the Buddha was talking about.
Here are a few things to think about:

The Buddha first entered jhana when he was a kid, but he wasn't liberated. Why?

He learned different kinds of jhanas from different teachers... such as the jhana for nothingness, and the jhana for neither-perception-nor-not-perception. They weren't liberating. Why?

I think that the idea of "vipassana jhana" clarifies this point.

---

I just want to get back on the topic. Thinking isn't an hindrance in itself. Only these are hindrances: sense-desire, ill-will, sloth and boredom, restlessness and worry, and doubt.

Suppose that you're able to stick with the "same" thought, and then observe it (of course it changes), you will see that its quality changes significantly when you take away each of the hindrances listed above.

The "boring" thought stops being boring. The thought stops being "doubtful." The thought stops filling you with "worry." The thought stops being "angry." The thought stops being "great" for your mind. How can that be? It's (let's just suppose) exactly the same thought that you're observing.

It's just like how some people on here seem like they're working from the same premises (more-or-less), but they can't see this because of their own conditionings. That's just my own observation... this could be mistaken.

:anjali: