Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
David2
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by David2 »

it was far, far, far too distracting for me and it prompted me to do anything BUT focus on becoming established in the practice.
That's just your mind looking for excuses.
Not the chanting was the reason for you getting distracted, but the state of your mind.

In my opinion, Goenkaji's chanting does not sound badly at all.
It's repetitive, yes, but that are many things on a retreat and many things in life as well.
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

David2 wrote:
it was far, far, far too distracting for me and it prompted me to do anything BUT focus on becoming established in the practice.
That's just your mind looking for excuses.
Not the chanting was the reason for you getting distracted, but the state of your mind.

In my opinion, Goenkaji's chanting does not sound badly at all.
It's repetitive, yes, but that are many things on a retreat and many things in life as well.
It has to be said that a retreat is a conscious decision to be separate from the world and you would appreciate the optimum conditions. In the Buddha's time there were many instances of his monks having trouble meditating due to adverse conditions. The Buddha did not advise them to 'suck it up', instead he advised them to move or do metta. I personally have not come across an argument that convinces me of the Dhammic necessity for the all day chanting. I have stayed in monastery's where the chanting is a morning and evening thing and more importantly it is an inclusive event, doing a certain amount of chanting by 'oneself' definitely has a Dhammic purpose. Being chanted at always made me a little uneasy. When I broached the subject of chanting it was waved away as something that creates 'good vibrations' or is something the teacher 'has to do'. I am not aware of the Buddha teaching in such a way when his monks were trying to meditate in seclusion, it would be a matter of a discourse by the Buddha then seclusion. Chanting can be viewed by some as 'magical words' especially if an alien language is used. I could actually see the advantage of being chanted at if that chanting was done in our mother tongue- then it would become a teaching and not just sounds.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ertner,
ertner wrote:i hope this doesn't sound like i'm hating... i'm just very confused by what i just experienced.
In the framework of the instructions you could have observed the feeling (vedana) of the physical manifestations (kaya-sankhara) you created as a result of your aversion. Thus, continuing with your specified practice, despite the presence of what was (to you) unpleasant vedana. In other words, integrating it into what you were supposed to be doing, rather than allowing it to destroy what you were supposed to be cultivating.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ertner,
ertner wrote:i hope this doesn't sound like i'm hating... i'm just very confused by what i just experienced.
In the framework of the instructions you could have observed the feeling (vedana) of the physical manifestations (kaya-sankhara) you created as a result of your aversion. Thus, continuing with your specified practice, despite the presence of what was (to you) unpleasant vedana. In other words, integrating it into what you were supposed to be doing, rather than allowing it to destroy what you were supposed to be cultivating.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile: It almost borders on the tantric idea of putting oneself in certain situations or generating certain feelings - just to 'face' them down. Life is unpleasant enough without any encouragement.

Metta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat?
No, but to mentally disintegrate under the weight of aversion, in the present of unpleasant-vedana, isn't the purpose of a retreat, either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other.
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“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
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Ben
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Ben »

Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other.
Well said, Goof!
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Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

Goofaholix wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Is that really the purpose of a retreat? To put oneself in a situation which is unpleasant, we are not tudong monks :smile:
Absolutely!

That's exactly what a reatreat is for, ...............
If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?

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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?
This is the practise, the middle way, half way between hedonism and asceticism.

You draw the line by fully embracing the unpleasant and realising it can't hurt you, a little chanting never hurt anyone, it's just a preference. Now if Goenka pulled out a chainsaw and started disembowling his students that would be a signal to beat a hasty retreat, pardon the pun.

If one continues to try and arrange everything in life in such a way as to avoid the unpleasant and get more of the pleasant then it's just a game, one that doesn't lead to the end of suffering.

As Ajahn Chah said "There are two kinds of suffering : the suffering which leads to more suffering, and the suffering which leads to the end of suffering. The first is the pain of grasping after fleeting pleasures and aversion for the unpleasant, the continued struggle of most people day after day. The second is the suffering which comes when you allow yourself to feel fully the constant change of experience - fear or withdrawal. Thesuffering of our experience lead to inner fearlessness and peace."

I'd have thought this was Buddhism 101.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?
The purpose of the retreat setting is to facilitate an environment which supports investigation into vedana... its purpose isn't to provide pleasant-vedana, anymore than its purpose is to provide unpleasant-vedana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:If that is your cup of tea, then go for it. Where does one draw the line regarding putting oneself in unpleasant situations?
The purpose of the retreat setting is to facilitate an environment which supports investigation into vedana... its purpose isn't to provide pleasant-vedana, anymore than its purpose it to provide unpleasant-vedana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
A retreats purpose is to foster an environment where one can calmly deal with the ups & downs of meditation, including investigation of vedana. If that environment adds stress rather than decreasing it then it becomes a problem. To cultivate calm is not to run away from unpleasant vedana, rather it is a pro-active way of dealing with them. This process is not a picnic, any extraneous difficulties that are deliberately made part of the retreat cannot be conducive to development. Being chanted to is not a problem for some people, for others it is an un-wished for intrusion. It might be better, if one could opt in or out of the chanting.

Metta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Brizzy,

I'm not disagreeing with that - only saying that (given that sitting through Goenka's chanting is a mandatory part of the syllabus) that the meditator should be aiming integrate it into the practice they are being asked to follow, rather than get carried away by their negative emotional response to it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Brizzy
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Brizzy »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,

I'm not disagreeing with that - only saying that (given that sitting through Goenka's chanting is a mandatory part of the syllabus) that the meditator should be aiming integrate it into the practice they are being asked to follow, rather than get carried away by their negative emotional response to it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Agreed. Perhaps the large amount of chanting that takes place as part of the syllabus should be made clearer to newbies beforehand.

Metta

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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Brizzy wrote:A retreats purpose is to foster an environment where one can calmly deal with the ups & downs of meditation, including investigation of vedana. If that environment adds stress rather than decreasing it then it becomes a problem. To cultivate calm is not to run away from unpleasant vedana, rather it is a pro-active way of dealing with them. This process is not a picnic, any extraneous difficulties that are deliberately made part of the retreat cannot be conducive to development. Being chanted to is not a problem for some people, for others it is an un-wished for intrusion. It might be better, if one could opt in or out of the chanting.
I'd agree with you that the chanting is an un-wished for intrusion for a lot of us. However life is full of un-wished for intrusion and if one can't learn to deal with un-wished for intrusion in a calm way while on retreat what hope is there for busy day to day life.

Personally I choose to go back to my room during the big session before breakfast, I also choose not to create aversion at other times, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

One can choose whether sense contact is classed as intrusion or not, for example car horns are often classed as intrusion whereas birdsong is not and yet the same process of hearing is taking place.

Ultimately if one is practising insight meditation rather than concentration meditation nothing is classed as intrusion.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by mikenz66 »

Goofaholix wrote: I'd agree with you that the chanting is an un-wished for intrusion for a lot of us. However life is full of un-wished for intrusion and if one can't learn to deal with un-wished for intrusion in a calm way while on retreat what hope is there for busy day to day life.
I've only done one Goenka retreat, in Hong Kong back in 2007 so my memory may be a little fuzzy. Personally, I didn't particularly care for the chanting either (I'm used to Thai-style chanting) but as I recall it was only that morning session, so not that big a deal. We also had to contend with some pile driving in the next properly that sometimes shook the whole building...

On retreats here I often have the sound of a ride-on mower and other garden maintenance. Not to mention earthquakes... :jumping:

As others have said, these are all opportunities for practice. And see this from Ajahn Chah: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =0#p158780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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