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Wood for the Trees - Dhamma Wheel

Wood for the Trees

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Myotai
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Wood for the Trees

Postby Myotai » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:31 pm

Hi,

So, (and this might sound utterly obvious) having just got back from a short retreat in a Forest Tradition monastery and listened to the talks on Vipassana....there is very little if any difference between the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza and that of Vipassana.

Sitting, being aware of everything that is coming up....not attaching or responding being as equanimous as possible.

Am I right.....<Tilt>?

JohnK
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby JohnK » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:17 pm

My Vipassana teacher sometimes mentions the parallel with shikantaza, but not in any detail -- not enough to highlight want might be differences.
So, I look forward to additional discussion here; thanks for bringing it up.
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
Kindly eyes, not verbal daggers.

Bakmoon
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Bakmoon » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:01 pm

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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mikenz66
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:15 pm


paul
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby paul » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:13 pm

Since vipassana is the central process of the Noble Eightfold Path, producing wisdom (insight) from sila and samadhi, uniquely developed by the Buddha and what distinguishes Buddhism from Hinduism, it must be present in all Buddhist schools. But I suspect the textual descriptions of understanding , such as in the Vism. where it occupies nearly 400 pages, are more extensive and therefore vipassana is more an essential characteristic of Theravada than anywhere else.
Last edited by paul on Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lucem
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Lucem » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:39 pm


paul
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby paul » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:01 pm

You're confusing the Vipassana movement with vipassana as an integral process of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Lucem
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Lucem » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:10 pm


paul
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby paul » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:23 pm

"Whereas ignorance obscures the true nature of things, wisdom removes the veils of distortion, enabling us to see phenomena in their fundamental mode of being with the vivacity of direct perception. The training in wisdom centers on the development of insight (vipassana-bhavana), a deep and comprehensive seeing into the nature of existence which fathoms the truth of our being in the only sphere where it is directly accessible to us, namely, in our own experience." --Bikkhu Bodhi, "The Noble Eightfold Path, chap. VIII, Wisdom.

Reading the complete chapter gives a fuller understanding of vipassana as the essential process of The Noble Eightfold Path, indeed this chapter is the culmination of the book.

"Today the practice of insight meditation has gained global popularity, yet in achieving this success it has undergone a subtle metamorphosis. Rather than being taught as an integral part of the Buddhist path, it is now often presented as a secular discipline whose fruits pertain more to life within the world than to supramundane release."Bikkhu Bodhi, "Two Styles of Insight Meditation". online essay.
Last edited by paul on Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Caodemarte
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Caodemarte » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:30 pm

Last edited by Caodemarte on Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lucem
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Lucem » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:38 pm


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Goofaholix
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:40 am

There are a wide variety of vipassana techniques and approaches.

Some are very similar to Shikantaza, I think I told you this a year or two ago, Sayadaw U Tejaniya for example and many IMS teachers influenced by him, or practices generally called choiceless awareness.

However traditional techniques like Mahasi or U Ba Khin are much more active and engaged with the meditation object(s), so not like Shikantaza at all on the surface of it.
Last edited by Goofaholix on Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

paul
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby paul » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:42 am

“If a bhikkhu should wish: ‘May I, by realising for myself with direct knowledge, here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints,’
let him fulfil the precepts, be devoted to internal serenity of mind, not neglect meditation, be possessed of insight, and dwell in empty huts.”
—MN 6 Sutta Central.

Any of the suttas describing the Buddha’s enlightenment refer to the six higher powers, the sixth of which is vipassana, or deliverance through wisdom. The first five higher powers are mundane, but the sixth is supermundane. Four to six appear frequently under the name of the ‘threefold higher knowledge’ (te-vijja) as in MN 4 and MN 19. Only the sixth is a necessary condition for sainthood.

Lucem
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Lucem » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:01 am


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Mkoll
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Mkoll » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:28 pm

I always thought shikantaza meant "just sitting" which is basically being mindful of the body sitting, a la the first satipatthana's postures. Looking at the Wikipedia page for it, it seems like there are different interpretations of what the practice of shikantaza entails...
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Bakmoon
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby Bakmoon » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:09 pm

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

dhammarelax
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby dhammarelax » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

paul
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Re: Wood for the Trees

Postby paul » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:53 am

The method of vipassana is investigation.
“Full understanding by investigating is that insight-wisdom (vipassana-panna) which has the three general characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) as its objects and when arises when attributing a general characteristic to physical and mental phenomena…” —Vism. XX.

Investigation is one of the Seven Factors of Enlightenment. In practice, investigation means taking the characteristic of impermanence and applying it in one's own life. Since looking at things in terms of impermanence is a different view to that one is normally accustomed to, applying it becomes a matter of investigation. Crossing over to the other shore means one must eventually put one's entire belief in impermanence, but this cannot be a sudden process, it must be gradual and the result of investigation- what happens in situations when one interacts guided by the principle of impermanence and not by that of self ?

“There are three kinds of training (sikkha) in Buddhism, namely: the training of morality (sila), in concentration (samadhi), and in wisdom (pañña). The training in morality is able to dispel only the third stage of the defilements, that of actual transgression. As there remain two stages undispelled, the defilements temporarily put away by morality can arise again and soon fill up until they reach the stage of transgression. […]

The third training, the training in wisdom—the knowledge that belongs to insight and the knowledge that pertains to the supramundane path—is able to dispel the first, latent stage of the defilements left undispelled by morality and concentration. The defilements that are entirely got rid of through wisdom, leaving nothing behind, will never rise again.”
—“The Manual of Insight”, (Vipassana Dipani), Ledi Sayadaw.

"One who earnestly aspires to the unshakable deliverance of the mind should, therefore, select a definite "working-ground" of a direct and practical import: a kammatthana[1] in its widest sense, on which the structure of his entire life should be based. Holding fast to that "working-ground," never losing sight of it for long, even this alone will be a considerable and encouraging progress in the control and development of the mind, because in that way the directive and purposive energies of mind will be strengthened considerably. One who has chosen the conquest of the five hindrances for a "working-ground" should examine which of the five are strongest in one's personal case." --The Five Mental Hindrances and their Conquest, Nyanaponika Thera.


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