Difference between jhana and magga phala

[Tharuka Piyumi]

According to my teacher jhana is constricting ur mind into one thought (can be done by samatha meditation) but attainment of magga phala can be done through looking at ur thoughts with a peaceful mind( can only achieve through vipassana meditation).I've seen some people make it seems like the same thing, but it is not.In vipassana u let ur mind flow freely and look through ur thoughts and find reasons for such thoughts so that u will eventually find all those thoughts occur due to "me" or "my self".Samatha meditation and attaining jhana can be useful to practice vipassana but it is not necessary to attain them to acheive sotapanna, sakadagami,anagami,arahat phala.In my opinion lot of people waste time over achieving jhana but not practicing vipassana which ultimately leads u into no where but a 'pleasant feeling' which is also anitta (impermanent).

[cjmacie]

According to my teacher jhana is constricting ur mind into one thought (can be done by samatha meditation) but attainment of magga phala can be done through looking at ur thoughts with a peaceful mind( can only achieve through vipassana meditation).I've seen some people make it seems like the same thing, but it is not.In vipassana u let ur mind flow freely and look through ur thoughts and find reasons for such thoughts so that u will eventually find all those thoughts occur due to "me" or "my self".Samatha meditation and attaining jhana can be useful to practice vipassana but it is not necessary to attain them to acheive sotapanna, sakadagami,anagami,arahat phala.In my opinion lot of people waste time over achieving jhana but not practicing vipassana which ultimately leads u into no where but a 'pleasant feeling' which is also anitta (impermanent).

Look around here a bit -- this topic has been discussed, from all sides at great length.

Your comments reflect a common but s/w biased and inaccurate view of samatha / samadhi / jhana. Insight to the degree of path/fruition requires highly developed, intense concentration, whether you call it jhana or vipassana-khanika-samadhi.

The Buddha's teachings (in the sutta-s themselves) does not support the description above. He refers to "jhana" much more frequently than "vipassana", and the later virtually always in conjunction with "samadhi".

[SarathW]

Buddha recommended both Samatha and Vipasssna.
This is generally the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path (Magga).
From their you have the right knowledge and right release( Phala).
Also known as ten Noble Path.

[Tharuka Piyumi]

Whether a person should practice Samatha thoroughly depends on their own wisdom. Samatha is important for vipassana but some people has already practiced samatha in their previous births.According to my teacher a person should try to practice vipassana if it becomes difficult then they should practice samatha and come back to vipassana (or do both together).And entire dhamma teaching is about gaining wisdom (ie magga phala).When reading suttas we can see some people were able to gain magga phala just by listening to the sermons that is because they practiced both methods in their previous births.

[robertk]

According to my teacher jhana is constricting ur mind into one thought (can be done by samatha meditation) but attainment of magga phala can be done through looking at ur thoughts with a peaceful mind( can only achieve through vipassana meditation).I've seen some people make it seems like the same thing, but it is not.In vipassana u let ur mind flow freely and look through ur thoughts and find reasons for such thoughts so that u will eventually find all those thoughts occur due to "me" or "my self".Samatha meditation and attaining jhana can be useful to practice vipassana but it is not necessary to attain them to acheive sotapanna, sakadagami,anagami,arahat phala.In my opinion lot of people waste time over achieving jhana but not practicing vipassana which ultimately leads u into no where but a 'pleasant feeling' which is also anitta (impermanent).

Look around here a bit -- this topic has been discussed, from all sides at great length.

Your comments reflect a common but s/w biased and inaccurate view of samatha / samadhi / jhana. Insight to the degree of path/fruition requires highly developed, intense concentration, whether you call it jhana or vipassana-khanika-samadhi.
.

Khanika samadhi is momentary - when you say 'intense concentration' , what do you mean>?

[Tharuka Piyumi]

I think what he meant by "intense concentration" is we should be well aware of our thoughts.For people who attained the status of arahat concentration isn't forced it is how they naturally are.Imo if we did metta meditation for a considerable amount of time it's good but it is forced,we might get angry if something happened but we might be aware of the fact we are angry and then we usually force ourselves to get over with the anger.But in Vipassana u should watch ur thoughts and be like "well i'm angry right now","my anger is increasing/decreasing right now","what course this anger","it is the expectation that I had that I deserved to be treated better by this person","why did I thought to be treated better"," Because I'm self obsessed and I think there is 'me' or 'my self'","If I get over the thought of 'me' I'd get over with my anger"

[dhammarelax]

According to my teacher jhana is constricting ur mind into one thought (can be done by samatha meditation) but attainment of magga phala can be done through looking at ur thoughts with a peaceful mind( can only achieve through vipassana meditation).I've seen some people make it seems like the same thing, but it is not.In vipassana u let ur mind flow freely and look through ur thoughts and find reasons for such thoughts so that u will eventually find all those thoughts occur due to "me" or "my self".Samatha meditation and attaining jhana can be useful to practice vipassana but it is not necessary to attain them to acheive sotapanna, sakadagami,anagami,arahat phala.In my opinion lot of people waste time over achieving jhana but not practicing vipassana which ultimately leads u into no where but a 'pleasant feeling' which is also anitta (impermanent).

We should know that :

AN 5. 27. Concentration

“..., being alert and mindful, develop concentration that is measureless. When, alert and mindful, you develop concentration that is measureless, … The knowledge arises that is personally yours: ‘This concentration is peaceful and sublime, gained by full tranquilization, and attained to unification; it is not reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing the defilements.’…”

smile
Dhammarelax

[cjmacie]

According to my teacher jhana is constricting ur mind into one thought (can be done by samatha meditation) but attainment of magga phala can be done through looking at ur thoughts with a peaceful mind( can only achieve through vipassana meditation)...

Your comments reflect a common but s/w biased and inaccurate view of samatha / samadhi / jhana. Insight to the degree of path/fruition requires highly developed, intense concentration, whether you call it jhana or vipassana-khanika-samadhi.

Khanika samadhi is momentary - when you say 'intense concentration' , what do you mean>?

Vipassana-khanika-samadhi, at the highest levels of development, is concentration on this that arises, then the next, then the next, etc. The concentration's focus floats along with whatever arises, but, at the level of mastery, it's intensity is constant. This explanation I find quite explicit, and in more than one work by the Mahasi Sayadaw (in the Treatise on Vipassana, and the Talks on Cakkhadhamma) According to his teaching, the intensity of the khanika-samadhi can be virtually the same as deep absorption concentration, as it must be at the level of practice approaching ariya attainments. Penetrating insight only possible with strong concentration.

"Followers" of Mahasi Sayadaw rarely refer to these aspects of his teachings, especially those in the West. My sense is that they're not familiar with a lot of what the Sayadaw actually taught; and also there's a serious and rather lamentable problem in the West with putting-down jhana / appana-samadhi without really understanding it. For the Mahasi Sayadaw, vipassana-khanika-samadhi and jhana/appana-samadhi were co-equal variants on the single theme of the necessity of mastery of concentration to master insight. At least that's the way I read it.

[robertk]

Dear CJ

I want to begin by some explanation of "jhana".
In the Atthasalini - The expositor PTS (translator : maung tin).
P58. Triplets in the Matika

"'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall."

"..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"



It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eight-factored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of "MUNDANE" Jhanas.

The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental).



"He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes [includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of "mundane" jhana]"

So yes, at the moment of attaining nibbana there is concentration , just for a few instants - which are equivalent in strength to jhana
Robert

[cjmacie]

...I want to begin by some explanation of "jhana".
In the Atthasalini ...

Can't judge this information, as it's a commentary on the Dhammasangani, so has to be considered in connection with that text.
Having read once the Dhammasangani (Rhy-Davids English with some reference to the Pali), I haven't got around to yet huge task of re-reading it and the commentary together -- having the English translation you mention, and a big thick book I got that's Nyanaponika Thera's translation into German ("Darlegung der Bedeutung" -- roughly "Laying out the Meaning"). Should I go ahead with that? or first tackle the Patthana, which Nyanaponika (in "Abhidhamma Studies") considers, together with the Dhammasangani, the other main pillar of Abhidhamma? -- Ars longa vita brevis!

So yes, at the moment of attaining nibbana there is concentration , just for a few instants - which are equivalent in strength to jhana
Robert

A "few instants", but potentially again and again, in a continuum where the object changes but the intensity of concentration holds through.

I've trained in jhana practice from teachers in the Pa Auk Sayadaw lineage, but also practice in Mahasi/Pandita system. I find that, in practice, the two systems merge. Strong, single-pointed absorption concentration takes the mind deeper in clarity, sharpness, but then later automatically (unless one does it just to bliss-out) shifts in and out of insight application. It's known that the "feeling" of absorption has a sort of mental-physiological momentum to it -- one can emerge, e.g. to shift position, but stay in close proximity, and readily re-absorb. This sense of momentum is also present in khanika-samadhi; the object focus shifts with sensate rising & falling, but an intense level of concentration holds through (it's just how concentration works in the human mind).

Also, in the Pa Auk Sayadaw system, he teaches advanced students to go in and out of jhana rapidly, up to several times per second; and, of course, use the concentration as basis for insight practice. The net effect of that practice, IMO, is identical to how Mahasi teaches using vipassana-khanika-samadhi, at advanced stages. In my view (and experience), the two approaches converge in practice.

All the popular debate about how different Pa Auk and Mahasi teachings are -- from what I've seen, so much verbiage by many who understand neither system that deeply.

[robertk]

I am not a supporter of either Pa auk or mahasi, although I would say Mahasi is closer to the orthodox position than Pa Auk.
See this for why: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=17107

However I want to point out one issue I see with Mahasi system (or some of his adherents): and that is the idea that by placing attention on changing objects that this itself is sati,or leads to sati, and that if developed and sustained leads to insight .

According to Theravada orthodoxy (B.Bodhi f
Abhidhammattha Sangaha): Ch VI, guide to #6)

"The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment
(cittakkha.na). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according
to the commentators, in the time it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to
blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly
infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising
(uppaada), presence (.thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a
mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then
dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through
the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted
like the waters in a stream

.

Thus the mind is changing very fast indeed: hard to be sure which moment was which. And again according to the texts (due to past accumulations of avijja and lobha and dosa) it is not so common to have moments with kusala: The Expositor points out “

the extreme rarity
of such moments”… as difficult for the
mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning-flash, because of
its extremely short duration”.

this has implications for the way we see 'practice'.


I used to have the idea: first get the mind nice and still and then
ponder at leisure the changing patterns. However, IMHO this is caught up
in a subtle idea that `mind' somehow exists. There is no Mind but
there are only rapidly changing phenomena.
It is natural that mental states are involved in concepts but in
between there can be, sometimes, little flashes of insight that know
the characteristic of paramattha dhamma (any of the khandhas such as
seeing or sound or feeling, or hardness, or greed). Ronald Graham, a
well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I
once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back
somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man
who loved only numbers"). Of course panna (wisdom ) of vipassana is
much faster than that as it is seeing dhammas directly (not
conceptualizing about them).

In conclusion - it is not concentration, in my opinion, so much that needs to be emphasised, but right view. Concentration will develop naturally alongside insight.

See causes for wisdom for more: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=15952

[cjmacie]

So yes, at the moment of attaining nibbana there is concentration , just for a few instants - which are equivalent in strength to jhana

As Caroline Rhys Davids points out (footnote 2 in the 2nd sentence of Dhammasangani passage #277), that is "the special kind of Jhana" at the moment of Path attainment. It is a single mind moment (ekacittakkhanikam) when change-of-lineage to nibbana occurs; followed by another, the mind-moment of Fruition.

Nyanaponika Thera, in his translation, cites, in a footnote, the subcommentary -- Mt. (Atthasalini-) Mulatika:
"Weil ein und derselbe Pfadmoment nicht zweimal aufsteigt"; d.h. der Pfad, z.B. des Stromeintritts, is nur ein einziger Bewusstseinsmoment, der darauffolgende ist bereits ein "Frucht"-Moment."
"…Because one and the same Path-moment occurs not twice; i.e. the Path, e.g. Stream-entry, is only an single citta-moment, the following moment being already a Fruition-moment"

So this "jhana" is a different animal than the "blameless, peaceful abiding", and "cetovimutti" that the Buddha speaks of and recommends so often, and which we know as jhana practice.

Common to both is that unique kind of javana / impulsion micro-moment – "change-of-lineage" – which in mundane jhana is change of object from sensual to "fine-material", and which at path-moment is change from whatever to nibanna.

Another difference is that, it's said somewhere in Abhidhamma, at the change-of-lineage javana in mundane jhana, time (i.e. mental activity) freezes, so to speak, and the javana is sustained for as long as the absorption. This is not that same "momentary flash".

[Meggo]

A book i liked which tries to analyze the differences between magga, phala and other meditative experiences is
Entering the Stream to Enlightenment: Experiences of the Stages of the Buddhist Path in Contemporary Sri Lanka
by Yuki Sirimane

I recommend it

[Jojola]

Difference between jhana and magga phala.

Phala means fruition or results of action if I'm not mistaking...
Magga means the path...

Magga Phala I imagine then means the fruits of the path. Which of course would be the noble attainments, the whole goal.

Jhana is part of that path to the goal; the eighth factor to be precise.

So I guess your question, to me, is a lot like asking "what is the difference between breaking eggs, and an omelette?"

[Tharuka Piyumi]

Difference between jhana and magga phala.

Phala means fruition or results of action if I'm not mistaking...
Magga means the path...

Magga Phala I imagine then means the fruits of the path. Which of course would be the noble attainments, the whole goal.

Jhana is part of that path to the goal; the eighth factor to be precise.

So I guess your question, to me, is a lot like asking "what is the difference between breaking eggs, and an omelette?"

Well I understand that we all have learn dhamma from different teachers so there can be differences between our opinions.But from what I have learned (refer Abhidhamma books) Magga is a type of citta which occurs consecutively after the phala citta.Initially before learning things deep I thought magga is the path to attain fruition but later I learned maggha is also a certain citta.Haven't you seen when reading Abhidhamma they mention sotapatti maggha citta, sotapatti phala citta etc.But my teacher says that sotapatti maggha citta cannot be clealy identified by the practitioner but phala citta is something you feel thoroughly (glimpse of nibbana).

And well for attaining jhana I understand ur opinion.But can you mention a place where lord buddha has stated that in order to attain maggha phala you have to attain jhanas from tripitaka).In tipitaka we study numorous stories about monks and lay people attaining different levels of phala but does those mention any thing about phala.But a common problem I see in western study of buddhism is there are lot of teachers who attained jhana and it is a good thing but they give lot of importance to jhana.To attain fruition you can either meditate or listen to dhamma with right concentration (yonisomanasikara)(there are other methods to attain too) for right concentration western people were tought anapanasati even by my teacher.But this doesn't necessarily mean you must attain jhana to attain fruition.