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Difference between jhana and magga phala - Dhamma Wheel

Difference between jhana and magga phala

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Tharuka Piyumi
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Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Tharuka Piyumi » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:05 am

According to my teacher jhana is constricting ur mind into one thought (can be done by samatha meditation) but attainment of magga phala can be done through looking at ur thoughts with a peaceful mind( can only achieve through vipassana meditation).I've seen some people make it seems like the same thing, but it is not.In vipassana u let ur mind flow freely and look through ur thoughts and find reasons for such thoughts so that u will eventually find all those thoughts occur due to "me" or "my self".Samatha meditation and attaining jhana can be useful to practice vipassana but it is not necessary to attain them to acheive sotapanna, sakadagami,anagami,arahat phala.In my opinion lot of people waste time over achieving jhana but not practicing vipassana which ultimately leads u into no where but a 'pleasant feeling' which is also anitta (impermanent).

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cjmacie
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby cjmacie » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:51 pm


SarathW
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby SarathW » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:26 pm

Buddha recommended both Samatha and Vipasssna.
This is generally the culmination of the Noble Eightfold Path (Magga).
From their you have the right knowledge and right release( Phala).
Also known as ten Noble Path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Tharuka Piyumi
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Tharuka Piyumi » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:34 am

Whether a person should practice Samatha thoroughly depends on their own wisdom. Samatha is important for vipassana but some people has already practiced samatha in their previous births.According to my teacher a person should try to practice vipassana if it becomes difficult then they should practice samatha and come back to vipassana (or do both together).And entire dhamma teaching is about gaining wisdom (ie magga phala).When reading suttas we can see some people were able to gain magga phala just by listening to the sermons that is because they practiced both methods in their previous births.

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robertk
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby robertk » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:10 am


Tharuka Piyumi
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Tharuka Piyumi » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:39 am

I think what he meant by "intense concentration" is we should be well aware of our thoughts.For people who attained the status of arahat concentration isn't forced it is how they naturally are.Imo if we did metta meditation for a considerable amount of time it's good but it is forced,we might get angry if something happened but we might be aware of the fact we are angry and then we usually force ourselves to get over with the anger.But in Vipassana u should watch ur thoughts and be like "well i'm angry right now","my anger is increasing/decreasing right now","what course this anger","it is the expectation that I had that I deserved to be treated better by this person","why did I thought to be treated better"," Because I'm self obsessed and I think there is 'me' or 'my self'","If I get over the thought of 'me' I'd get over with my anger" :) :)

dhammarelax
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby dhammarelax » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:33 pm

Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5

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cjmacie
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby cjmacie » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:51 am


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robertk
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby robertk » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:52 am

Dear CJ

I want to begin by some explanation of "jhana".
In the Atthasalini - The expositor PTS (translator : maung tin).
P58. Triplets in the Matika

"'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall."

"..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"



It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eight-factored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of "MUNDANE" Jhanas.

The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental).



"He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes [includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of "mundane" jhana]"

So yes, at the moment of attaining nibbana there is concentration , just for a few instants - which are equivalent in strength to jhana
Robert

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cjmacie
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby cjmacie » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:57 am


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robertk
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby robertk » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:57 pm


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cjmacie
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby cjmacie » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:00 pm


Meggo
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Meggo » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:21 pm

A book i liked which tries to analyze the differences between magga, phala and other meditative experiences is
Entering the Stream to Enlightenment: Experiences of the Stages of the Buddhist Path in Contemporary Sri Lanka
by Yuki Sirimane

I recommend :reading: it

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Jojola
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Jojola » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:32 pm

Regards,

- :heart:
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:candle:

Tharuka Piyumi
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Tharuka Piyumi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:28 am


Tharuka Piyumi
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Tharuka Piyumi » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:36 am


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cjmacie
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby cjmacie » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:13 pm


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cjmacie
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby cjmacie » Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:19 pm

Some confusion has arisen throughout this topic / thread, and admittedly in my own posts. So here an attempt at clarification:

1) One confusion is between
a) "mundane" jhana, in the sense of the practice of samadhi, in combination with insight, as development of the mind (bhavana) on the way to realization of "unbinding", nibbana; and
b) "supramundane" (lokuttara) jhana discussed in Abhidhamma texts (the Dhammasangani and its commentary the Atthasalini), perhaps built upon some passages in the sutta-s.

The first (a) is a steady state of mental process, an absorption arising from one-pointedness, that is considered a "purification" or sharpening of clarity, for the purpose of enabling more penetrating insight after leaving absorption. Insight into the nature of the the absorbed mind itself (cetovimutti), as well as insight applied in observing more normal, active mental activity moving among various phenomena that arise. (Another function of this jhana is a sort of healing, refreshment of the mind – a "pleasant abiding" – which is also mentioned (e.g. by both the Pa Auk Sayadaw and the Mahasi Sayadaw) as a way of balancing energy between the s/t exhausting rigors of applying intense vipassana insight, and a sort of "recharging" that energy with samadhi.)

The second (b) is apparently an instantaneous, one-time event marking the end-goal realization or penetrating experience of awakening, to nibbana.

The two senses – (a) and (b) – have multiple correspondences:
i) The one (a) is sometimes considered as sort of foretaste, preview of (b); as in when jhana is often referred to as cetovimtti ("deliverance of mind", albeit temporary) in the sutta-s;
ii) Both share the characteristic of occurring with a "change-of-lineage" impulsion moment (javana) in the Abdhidhamma analysis of details of the cognitive series/process;
iii) Both have a sense of "sukha" – Thanissaro Bhikkhu points out, in the last chapter of his "The Paradox of Becoming", that sukha is s/t used as a characteristic describing nibbana – a positive aspect of description, where most of the descriptive terms for nibbana are negative ("apothetic").

2) Another confusion has to do with "magga phala" – magga as "path moment", phala as "fruition moment". From everything I've read, the magga occurs first, a unique, instantaneous event, immediately followed by the phala. (Somewhere above in this thread is was mentioned that someone taught the opposite order of occurrence.)

A perhaps interesting way of relating this (2) to (1) above is that in "pragmatic" Buddhist discussions (i.e. at DharmaOverground.org), the magga moment is s/t described as a brief cessation, suspension of consciousness, followed by a re-starting of consciousness (the phala) in a radically different mode ("awakened"). It's been compared to a computer "reset" moment (DharmaOverground has strong links to the "Buddhist Geeks" group). That's not unlike the experience of entering the absorption of mundane jhana – the mind seems to, in some sense, freeze-up, cease its normal activity, e.g. of moving towards pleasure or away from pain, and reveal a radically different still-standing clarity of awareness.

These my conditioned observations and views – not absolute "truth", and subject to correction. :?

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Jojola
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Jojola » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:52 pm

Regards,

- :heart:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
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Akalika
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Re: Difference between jhana and magga phala

Postby Akalika » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:00 pm



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