Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:35 pm

Ive already asked this before - i read somewhere that mahasi sayadaw said mindfulness is like a tea pot - you need to continuously heat (be mindful) the water in order for them to boil (have insight)

So are one second mindfulness usless ? what about 5 minutes a day ? what about 5 minutes a week ? - im not taking about maybe it might help be more relaxed that day or a little more mindful but if its going to advance me to an insight - if i do 5 minutes in a week ? cause this way the water cant boil

The main question :


I asked a monk on the web dont remember the name but he was insight practicing monk and he said you can do one second a day mindfulness and as long as you dont kill or steal you can get an insight at some point maybe 5 years later - he said that as long as i dont kill or steal or sell drugs and stuff along this lines my pratice can only advance and not go backwards


thoughts on the subject please
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby daverupa » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:57 pm

Uninterrupted satipatthana is possible and something to work towards. Mindfulness in day-to-day living is a very productive faculty to develop; you will notice that it directly affects ones ability to guard the senses while at the same time acting as the foundation for a dedicated sitting practice.

The precepts are, in effect, methods of doing ethical satipatthana when in relation with other beings. In connection with this, note that two of the three aspects of right intention directly involve relating to beings.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:02 am

Whilst we should not disparage any attempt to cultivate mindfulness, 1 second is clearly not enough to develop any significant insight.

Unbroken Continuity is essential to develop the controlling faculties.

Mindfulness should be practised throughout the whole day without a break. Even if one cannot practise formal meditation for the whole day very often, one should practise mindfulness of all daily activities, thoughts, and feelings without fail.

Even a lay person with a young family to care for should be able to get away for a weekend retreat now and then.
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:20 am

I understand we should aspire to practice as much as we can - but does that mean for instance if i wash the dishes mindfuly and thats all i do in a day d- and i dont do any sitting or walking meditation at all for a few years - does that make the washing the dishes mindfuly usless?
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:52 pm

purple planet wrote:Ive already asked this before - i read somewhere that mahasi sayadaw said mindfulness is like a tea pot - you need to continuously heat (be mindful) the water in order for them to boil (have insight)

I also say we need to build concentration for insight to arise


Hi Purple Planet,

You're right, we need concentration. So, I think the metaphor is more like the following:

The concentration is to hold a pot of water over the flame; mindfulness is the intention to put and keep it over the flame; and the insight would be the water boiling.

So, substitute our practice for the pot of water; dhamma for the flame; and then nibbana for the boiling... and then we have the right mindfulness and concentration which will lead to the right view (or insight). Hope that helps.

:anjali:
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby reflection » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:53 pm

The path is a continuous journey. The more right effort you put into it, the faster the journey will go. So you might want to take one step a day, but it's better to keep walking. It's not like you have one insight and it's all done. Perhaps it's even better to say the real work starts after real insight.
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:01 pm

I also say we need to build concentration for insight to arise
oh i meant to write : i heared we need concentration for insight to arise so if we do a few seconds a day wont help at all to reach insights

i appreciate all answers they are all good and helpful - still the core question is :

if i wash dishes mindfully each day and i dont do any meditation other than that is it useless ?
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:10 pm

purple planet wrote:
I also say we need to build concentration for insight to arise
oh i meant to write : i heared we need concentration for insight to arise so if we do a few seconds a day wont help at all to reach insights

i appreciate all answers they are all good and helpful - still the core question is :

if i wash dishes mindfully each day and i dont do any meditation other than that is it useless ?


Hi Purple Planet,

I think that will build your skills in mindfulness and concentration... but you still need to apply these to the dhamma (the Buddha's teachings) to get the kind of insights we need for nibbana. That is why the Buddha explained we need the right mindfulness, right concentration and right view.

:anjali:
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:06 pm

Ok so i have right view - and i meditate - how much is enough to advance ?

5 minutes a day is to little isnt it ? (without planing to increase it 5 minutes a day for 10 years)

and also if each day i meditate at the morning and wash the dishes mindfuly in the eavning that part of being mindful is not helpful because its not continues with anything because last time i meditated was 10 hours ago ?
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:20 pm

purple planet wrote:Ok so i have right view - and i meditate - how much is enough to advance ?

5 minutes a day is to little isnt it ? (without planing to increase it 5 minutes a day for 10 years)

and also if each day i meditate at the morning and wash the dishes mindfuly in the eavning that part of being mindful is not helpful because its not continues with anything because last time i meditated was 10 hours ago ?


In my opinion, if we heard the Buddha's teachings and then started off to meditate 5 minutes a day it's impossible to not go deeper over the time. When you get caught in the current it's pretty strong, even when you don't notice it.

I don't think that mindfulness has to be continuous for it to be useful. If we remembered to do the practice every now and then, that is mindfulness. We do our practice so that our skills become better.

The mindfulness still becomes better every time we remember to use it.

:anjali:
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:35 pm

The concentration is to hold a pot of water over the flame; mindfulness is the intention to put and keep it over the flame; and the insight would be the water boiling.


so you agree with this metaphor - you agree it should be continues ?

I don't think that mindfulness has to be continuous for it to be useful. If we remembered to do the practice every now and then, that is mindfulness. We do our practice so that our skills become better.


cause you say this - does that mean you dont really agree with it ?

The mindfulness becomes better every time we remember to use it
can you expand ?

if i stop practicing for 2 months do i start to practice form point zero again ?

sorry for pushing i really want to get to the buttom of this - all answers are great though
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby santa100 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:43 pm

purple planet wrote:i appreciate all answers they are all good and helpful - still the core question is :

if i wash dishes mindfully each day and i dont do any meditation other than that is it useless ?


It's not useless. It's one valid mindfulness exercise among the many exercises according to MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta. For example, under the Body Contemplation group (KaayaNupassana), there are 14 exercises: mindfulness of the breath, the four postures, all activities, foulness of the body, the four great elements, and the nine charnel ground contemplations. ( http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... indfulness )
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Re: Insight without continuous mindfulness ?

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:42 pm

purple planet wrote:
The concentration is to hold a pot of water over the flame; mindfulness is the intention to put and keep it over the flame; and the insight would be the water boiling.


so you agree with this metaphor - you agree it should be continues ?


Hi Purple Planet,

Yes, I think that the mindfulness and concentration have to be steady.

I don't think that mindfulness has to be continuous for it to be useful. If we remembered to do the practice every now and then, that is mindfulness. We do our practice so that our skills become better.


cause you say this - does that mean you dont really agree with it ?


No, I still agree with it.

No one has good concentration or mindfulness, at first... they still need to practice them.

For example, if someone let the pot off the flame and then saw that water wasn't getting hot... that's still insight, but I think that is only when the person has the mindfulness to notice it.

The mindfulness becomes better every time we remember to use it
can you expand ?

if i stop practicing for 2 months do i start to practice form point zero again ?


I don't think you will start from point zero again. You will know what it's like to stop practicing for 2 months... I think that's still good experience.

sorry for pushing i really want to get to the buttom of this - all answers are great though


I think it's good you're asking questions.

:anjali:
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:37 pm

Very confusing subject - its a shame its not clearer - im not sure what view to follow -

everything counts - or continuity is the way to gain insight
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Re: Insight without continues mindfulness ?

Postby purple planet » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:01 pm

ok i asked a monk and he answered : its like learning a language if you learn a few basic words and then forget about it - and after a 10 years get back to learning it - it will be a little easier - so its not useless - but if you want to speak taht language good you need to practice it continuously cause if you learn one word a week it will take you a long time to understand

so 1 minute of mindfulness is good and helpful but only a tiny bit - and its much better to have continuity and practice more but its not usless to have a minute of mindfulness here and there
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