Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby dxm_dxm » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:01 pm

Hello.

I did this accidentally, repeated it many times and this is what happened: I tried to enter first jhana using concentration meditation at the tip of the nostrils. After switching to the pleasant sensation, althow not entering first jhana (the pleasure not yet exploding into the probably the most pleasant sensation you can experience as human, but been quite close or at least half the way) I stopped concentration on the pleasant sensation and started observing anything that poped up: phisical sensations, thaughts, etc. While doing this I started observing more and more sensations very fast until at one point I was observing like 10 things per second and then they were poping up so fast I could not even "catch" them anymore. First time I did it and only time I got to the point of not even been able to catch them anymore they were mainly memories. When you think of a colleague for example you then think of another colleague and this happens after a while while not meditating. When I was in that state memories poped up like a photo from a camera and one lead to another like it would if not meditating only that this happened like 10 times per second.

The next day after I had this experience I went on a walk and intented to be mindfulness. I only practice concentration at the moment and I had not reached the first jhana yet when this experience happened and I did not practice insight meditation. I was not able to be mindfulness for more than a couple of seconds and it could barelly be called mindfulness, usually observing things after they poped up, not been in the present moment. In the walk I took then I was able to be completelly mindfulness for the entire walk through the city (2 and a half hours) and was observing like 2-3 things per second. I finally understood what been mindfulness means in that walk.

Edit: Also, I had no "insight" or "mini revelation" in this state like it is supposed to happen in nanas but I supose it was some nana


Can someone tell me how this tehnique is named and explain a little what happened ?
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:46 pm

Hi,

From my experience,

When a mind is going toward jhana, it becomes centered and single-minded. It becomes very still. After the meditation this stillness will stay, so there won't be an arising of many memories and impressions in the mind. It is true that meditation can give you an insight into how active the mind actually is, but samadhi is stilling this activity, not making it (seem) worse.

What I think happened is you forced too much. I read "I tried to enter", "I stopped", "I started, doing". Being that involved can superficially seem calm the mind, but it does not really. That's why after you 'concentrated' and let loose, the mind was not at ease and it created many memories and impressions. In meditation you do not concentrate or use this kind of force. I think the translation 'concentration' is really bad as it gives rise to misunderstandings such as this. Instead you let the mind settle into peace and naturally all impressions fade away.

Sharp mindfulness also arises when the mind is calmed by not forcing it. It arises when there is little going on in the mind, not when there is a lot going on. So in a sense having mindfulness when the mind is restless is a contradiction. So what you have experienced in the walk may in some sense be connected to mindfulness, but not really be the strong version yet. It is more like clear understanding (sampajanna), although in my eyes that does not only include seeing things arise, but also know why they arise, if it is wholesome, and if not, what to do about it.

I hope this helps in a way.

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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby dxm_dxm » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:37 pm

Thanks for the reply.

I was not intending to enter jhana when doing this. After some time of doing normal concentration meditation, like for jhana I decided instead of concentrating on the pleasant sensation to be what I understand to mean - mindfulness. I let my mind do whathever it want's and just observe it, like in that 2 and a half hour walk. I was simply in the presant moment observing everything that is taking place. My mind was wandering and I was observing it. This has to be an insight technique and the fact that I was noting 10 things per second till the point I was not even able to catch what was arising because it was dissapearing too quickly must mean that something happened over there and that this is a technique that works.

although in my eyes that does not only include seeing things arise, but also know why they arise, if it is wholesome, and if not, what to do about it.

I am not sure what to say over here. I could clearly see why one memory pops up, how it produces a feeling good or bad, could see why one memory puped up because of the precedent one. While been mindfulness on the street I could see like why the fealing of fear for example comes up after seen a dog etc. I was not thinking intelectually or if I was, I was observing that too. I was completelly in the presant moment and observed everything. I was for those 2 and half hours while walking absolutally mindfulness, the way I understand it.

It is the only time I was able to do that, never before and never after, not to a lesser extent. Keep in mind that I was never able to be mindfulness for more than a couple of seconds and not at all to that extent, I do not practice insight meditation and I only entered the first jhana once so this thing happening is really, really incredible. I was a meditator on steroids lol. The technique I described must sure be effective for mindfulness, staying in the presant moment. Also, the part where things were arising so fast that I could not even observe them properly I think must be some sort of nana, what else could it be ?

I read "I tried to enter", "I stopped", "I started, doing". Being that involved can superficially seem calm the mind, but it does not really.

This is probably why I was not able to enter first jhana anymore after reaching it just once. I know you are suppose to be detached but it is pretty hard. Do you think that the state of mind, what you are expecting to happen before you start meditating could help at these? I mean is there something you can tell yourself before starting meditating like "just meditate and not expect jhana this week" or something, any advice would be welcomed. I know you are not supposed to "want" to enter jhana but in the back of your mind you will be expecting that and want it. Can you set a mental state before meditation or the only thing you can do is just concentrate on the pleasant sensation until this desire disappears ?
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:58 pm

If you think it was useful I would say: see if you can cultivate the state of mind again, but there is no need to give it a label. Not all experiences have a name in the commentaries (like the nanas), or in the suttas. In fact, most don't. If you have experienced something unlike anything before, it does not have to be an insight that has a name. Although an indicator of progress, the ability to clearly watch things arise into experience is not something special that needed such a name in my eyes. (although some at certain places may give it a label -I don't know-, but that's obviously not going to add much to the experience itself)

The state of mind we enter meditation with certainly for a big part determines how that meditation goes. I think it is quite important to check out our state of mind at the beginning and see if there is something we can do to be more content. I allow myself a bit of creativity here. One option is just to wait, which is a good one because being able to wait and able to be contented are closely connected. But there are many reflections one can do to crave less, a classic one being the reflection on impermanence. Another is dedicating our practice to others. But what these reflections are and how successful they are are something that depends on our understanding and our experiences. For example, on a more fundamental level, understanding that it is the craving itself that causes the mind to be unstable, or understanding anatta. Here insight supports the calm, so you have to find out for yourself what you are attached to and how to let that go.

Also from personal experience, having direct contact with a teacher may help to get your feet back on the ground after new experiences.

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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby dxm_dxm » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:04 pm

If you think it was useful I would say: see if you can cultivate the state of mind again, but there is no need to give it a label. Not all experiences have a name in the commentaries (like the nanas), or in the suttas. In fact, most don't. If you have experienced something unlike anything before, it does not have to be an insight that has a name. Although an indicator of progress, the ability to clearly watch things arise into experience is not something special that needed such a name in my eyes. (although some at certain places may give it a label -I don't know-, but that's obviously not going to add much to the experience itself)

I am curious what will happen after the point of not even been able to percive the objects because they arise and disappear too fast. It took some time to get to that point and althow you have no problem with pain in that state because you just observe the pain the fear of suffering some permanent damage made me stop. The good thing is that if you move and continue to do this after you will lose just a little focus not all focus, you will not have to start all over again.

The state of mind we enter meditation with certainly for a big part determines how that meditation goes. I think it is quite important to check out our state of mind at the beginning and see if there is something we can do to be more content. I allow myself a bit of creativity here. One option is just to wait, which is a good one because being able to wait and able to be contented are closely connected. But there are many reflections one can do to crave less, a classic one being the reflection on impermanence. Another is dedicating our practice to others. But what these reflections are and how successful they are are something that depends on our understanding and our experiences. For example, on a more fundamental level, understanding that it is the craving itself that causes the mind to be unstable, or understanding anatta. Here insight supports the calm, so you have to find out for yourself what you are attached to and how to let that go.

Thanks for the advice. :D I noticed once that I had a good state of mind and meditation went better. I will try to pay attention to the state I am when entering meditation. Thinking about impermanence and the fact that you are gona die should change the state of mind at least a little if not a lot
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby dxm_dxm » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:10 am

You have no idea how great the advice was. I was just able to enter first jhana for the second time, also pretty fast
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby Zenainder » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:38 am

dxm_dxm,

This goes along the same lines as to what reflection was stating, but I strongly encourage you not to conceptualize your practice, or "I want to attain" or "I have attained". What we do know, however, that mindfulness training cultivates these "attainments". It is often a detriment to stick a jhana or enlightenment in front of us as a carrot on a stick and grasp after them desperately.

Think of the attainments, which is a poor word imho, as the fruit of a tree. The fruit only grows through the right conditions and causes; the tree does not bear fruit because it is willing them, they are natural to the growing process so long as the conditions are right. Focus on your practice diligently without any goal in mind and you will be doing your practice a huge favor. This is, of course, my perspective and what I have found helpful in my practice.

Absolutely ponder reflection's input, I cannot add any more to it. <3

Metta,

Zen

P.S.-
"I want enlightenment" the practice precisely removes the "I" and "wanting" and leaves only enlightenment. Food for thought.
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:45 am

dxm_dxm wrote:You have no idea how great the advice was. I was just able to enter first jhana for the second time, also pretty fast

Don't think it was jhana by my understanding of jhana, but if you got more peaceful than before, good for you. But yeah, be careful not to see it as something "you can do".

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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:42 am

It is often a detriment to stick a jhana or enlightenment in front of us as a carrot on a stick and grasp after them desperately.

Well I have thought about this and decided to stick it in front of everybody like a carrot, told many of my friends (the ones you can talk something like this to them) because huge amounts of pleasure in the first level of concentration is a very good way of rising people curiosity and motivation about meditation. I have no guilt about this been bragging because it is only the first level, if it would be the 8th you can bet I won't say a word about it. I know that "the one who speeks, doest not know, the one who knows does not speek" but I am defenitly at the level of "the one who speeks" right now lol.

I would like to see your opinions about this too. When I read about people in advanced levels of concentration and insight on the forums I see why they are not spoken about. They rise the desire to get them and even a little envy for been so far from that point in me but this is the first jhana and anybody can get to that point withought decades of training.
By the way, when telling a non meditator about the benefits the best thing I have to rise their curiosity is this: "You work all your life for happiness witch is given by a couple of substances (dopamine, serotonine etc.) in your brain witch can easily be measured. Whathever happens after you die, you still work like an animal for those susbtances and the fact that a budhist monk is 8-10 times more happy and that the happiest man in the world officially is a big meditator (Matthieu Ricard) means you are not using the most efficient way of getting those substances in your brain. Also, any pleasure got from external things (marriage, money etc.) can last maximum 5 years before you get back to where you were before and want another external thing"

Don't think it was jhana by my understanding of jhana, but if you got more peaceful than before, good for you. But yeah, be careful not to see it as something "you can do"

Hard not to do that. Hopefully after I will get more advanced I will get a different way of thinking about this. I am a normal person who entered it and hopes to become a master one day, not a master already who has entered it.
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby Zenainder » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:16 am

dxm_dxm wrote:
It is often a detriment to stick a jhana or enlightenment in front of us as a carrot on a stick and grasp after them desperately.

Well I have thought about this and decided to stick it in front of everybody like a carrot, told many of my friends (the ones you can talk something like this to them) because huge amounts of pleasure in the first level of concentration is a very good way of rising people curiosity and motivation about meditation. I have no guilt about this been bragging because it is only the first level, if it would be the 8th you can bet I won't say a word about it. I know that "the one who speeks, doest not know, the one who knows does not speek" but I am defenitly at the level of "the one who speeks" right now lol.

I would like to see your opinions about this too. When I read about people in advanced levels of concentration and insight on the forums I see why they are not spoken about. They rise the desire to get them and even a little envy for been so far from that point in me but this is the first jhana and anybody can get to that point withought decades of training.
By the way, when telling a non meditator about the benefits the best thing I have to rise their curiosity is this: "You work all your life for happiness witch is given by a couple of substances (dopamine, serotonine etc.) in your brain witch can easily be measured. Whathever happens after you die, you still work like an animal for those susbtances and the fact that a budhist monk is 8-10 times more happy and that the happiest man in the world officially is a big meditator (Matthieu Ricard) means you are not using the most efficient way of getting those substances in your brain. Also, any pleasure got from external things (marriage, money etc.) can last maximum 5 years before you get back to where you were before and want another external thing"

Don't think it was jhana by my understanding of jhana, but if you got more peaceful than before, good for you. But yeah, be careful not to see it as something "you can do"

Hard not to do that. Hopefully after I will get more advanced I will get a different way of thinking about this. I am a normal person who entered it and hopes to become a master one day, not a master already who has entered it.


Good morning,

When I write "carrot on a stick", which is a western phrase, it means like a donkey with a stick strapped to its back with a carrot in front it. It progresses forward and forward grasping for the carrot, but never obtaining it. It is a metaphor used for something one normally will never get, but chases it ignorantly hence "carrot on a stick".

Personally, I am not certain if you have or have not, but I can appreciate your zeal for meditation. I strongly encourage to establish yourself in mindfulness and remain objective regarding all your experiences (jhanic or non-jhanic). Jhana is a tool to still the hindrances and increases concentration for insight. It is only a means to an end, it is not the means to the end. It is a useful tool that has been used even before the Buddha's time. Do not forget that the Buddha had buddies who were practicing deep jhana's, yet were not getting anywhere.

Also, don't forget about "right view" and "right concentration" as you continue on the path. Living in the western world there is little to no interests in meditation and most of those I interact with have trouble relating with even the basics. I share when required, but most of the time my path is my own. I am not here to save the world, nor do I feel a need to. Either way, sharing is fine if you are so inclined to do so. Perhaps one should understand the "need" to share?

You will find here an immense amount of sceptism regarding the jhana's. It goes without saying that it is very personal and difficult to truly know who "has" or "hasn't". Learn what you can from doubters and supporters of your practice in the end.

Metta,

Zen

P.S.
What guideline are you using to qualify your meditation experience as "jhanic"?
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:41 am

When I write "carrot on a stick", which is a western phrase, it means like a donkey with a stick strapped to its back with a carrot in front it. It progresses forward and forward grasping for the carrot, but never obtaining it. It is a metaphor used for something one normally will never get, but chases it ignorantly hence "carrot on a stick".

Lol now I get it :D Yup, that's what I have been doing since I got that first experience witch could be qualified like 1st jhana and althow I expected (another bad thing) to get even further since then I was not able to. This problem with the carrot is quite hard to deal with, only time and training will lesser that desire and I found that the advice here about the state of mind when starting meditating was very good.

I am not here to save the world, nor do I feel a need to. Either way, sharing is fine if you are so inclined to do so. Perhaps one should understand the "need" to share?

This is a good point. I am telling things like that only to the ones who I think can understand something and about 2 of them started meditating and researching about this and got the idea at least a little. This is easy, throwing some words out your mouth who have the ability to change lifes. When you hear about a more efficient way of geting serotonine and dopamine, the thing you work for all your life weather knowing it or not, it should rise your curiosity at least a little.

What guideline are you using to qualify your meditation experience as "jhanic"?

Well all that I read on the internet are quite the same regarding the first jhana at least. I know the problems with the guides, I thaught I was there for about 2 months because the pleasure was big but it never exploded into the most pleasant experience you can ever experience. Some bursts of pleasure that might seem like an explosion happened but never a big one after witch I remained in that state. It's really hard to miss something like that. Anyway I do not see why this would rise problems over here because it is one guy who says he entered first jhana for 1 time and has no insight practice, it's not somebody claiming to be sotopana or entering 4rh jhana or something. This was not the idea of the topic anyway, the part with the things arising so fast that could not be observed anymore was something that I hoped to get a label for but as somebody here said not all experiences have a label.

I was told that the practice of observing everything that pops up could be some sort of vedananupassana. I have to point out that I was not mindfullness/observing just some things that poped up, I observed everything that could be observed non-discriminately. There must be something about this technique if somewone with no insight training just does it for the first time and he gets to a point where things are poping out so fast that can't even be observed anymore.
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby Zenainder » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:18 pm

dxm_dxm wrote:
When I write "carrot on a stick", which is a western phrase, it means like a donkey with a stick strapped to its back with a carrot in front it. It progresses forward and forward grasping for the carrot, but never obtaining it. It is a metaphor used for something one normally will never get, but chases it ignorantly hence "carrot on a stick".

Lol now I get it :D Yup, that's what I have been doing since I got that first experience witch could be qualified like 1st jhana and althow I expected (another bad thing) to get even further since then I was not able to. This problem with the carrot is quite hard to deal with, only time and training will lesser that desire and I found that the advice here about the state of mind when starting meditating was very good.

I am not here to save the world, nor do I feel a need to. Either way, sharing is fine if you are so inclined to do so. Perhaps one should understand the "need" to share?

This is a good point. I am telling things like that only to the ones who I think can understand something and about 2 of them started meditating and researching about this and got the idea at least a little. This is easy, throwing some words out your mouth who have the ability to change lifes. When you hear about a more efficient way of geting serotonine and dopamine, the thing you work for all your life weather knowing it or not, it should rise your curiosity at least a little.

What guideline are you using to qualify your meditation experience as "jhanic"?

Well all that I read on the internet are quite the same regarding the first jhana at least. I know the problems with the guides, I thaught I was there for about 2 months because the pleasure was big but it never exploded into the most pleasant experience you can ever experience. Some bursts of pleasure that might seem like an explosion happened but never a big one after witch I remained in that state. It's really hard to miss something like that. Anyway I do not see why this would rise problems over here because it is one guy who says he entered first jhana for 1 time and has no insight practice, it's not somebody claiming to be sotopana or entering 4rh jhana or something. This was not the idea of the topic anyway, the part with the things arising so fast that could not be observed anymore was something that I hoped to get a label for but as somebody here said not all experiences have a label.

I was told that the practice of observing everything that pops up could be some sort of vedananupassana. I have to point out that I was not mindfullness/observing just some things that poped up, I observed everything that could be observed non-discriminately. There must be something about this technique if somewone with no insight training just does it for the first time and he gets to a point where things are poping out so fast that can't even be observed anymore.


The sutta's mention 4 points +1 that I have been taught to consider with jhana 1:

1. Sustained thought
2. Applied thought
3. Happiness
4. Bliss (with different bliss' depending on the mind state, etc.)
(5). Subdued hindrances (temporarily) <--- This one in particular I was taught, I cannot say with confidence if the suttas come out and say it, though.

I would use these 5, research, understand, and contemplate them. The first four are critical, imho, in determining for one's self has experienced jhana. Meditation alone can have pleasant experiences, but I do not think all pleasant experiences are jhanic. Another way to know if you have developed jhana is to enter it for a set amount of time, say 17 (arbitrary number) minutes and 2 seconds and objectively observe if you arise out of it exactly in that timing.

I think what's important is to remain objective. Let your zeal inspire your practice, but not inspire further addiction. Although, I will admit there are worse things out there to be addicted to. :lol: Just take your experiences with a naked awareness and see them for what they are. Note if they are pleasurable, unpleasurable, etc. and refrain from seeking either. Let them happen or not happen, conceptualize and seek nothing, but insight; it tends to dawn on its own if you are simply present.

Metta,
Zen
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby pegembara » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:36 am

You might find this useful, hopefully.

When piti arises one feels an indescribable pleasure, which only those who experience can appreciate. Sukha (pleasure) arises, and there is also the quality of one-pointedness. There are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata. These five qualities all converge at the one place. Even though they are different qualities they are all collected in the one place, and we can see them all there, just like seeing many different kinds of fruit in the one bowl. Vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata -- we can see them all in the one mind, all five qualities. If one were to ask, "How is there vitakka, how is there vicara, how are there piti and sukha?..." it would be difficult to answer, but when they converge in the mind we will see how it is for ourselves.

At this point our practice becomes somewhat special. We must have recollection and self-awareness and not lose ourselves. Know things for what they are. These are stages of meditation, the potential of the mind. Don't doubt anything with regard to the practice. Even if you sink into the earth or fly into the air, or even "die" while sitting, don't doubt it. Whatever the qualities of the mind are, just stay with the knowing. This is our foundation: to have sati, recollection, and sampajañña, self-awareness, whether standing, walking, sitting, or reclining. Whatever arises, just leave it be, don't cling to it. Be it like or dislike, happiness or suffering, doubt or certainty, contemplate with vicara and gauge the results of those qualities. Don't try to label everything, just know it. See that all the things that arise in the mind are simply sensations. They are transient. They arise, exist and cease. That's all there is to them, they have no self or being, they are neither "us" nor "them." They are not worthy of clinging to, any of them.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... amadhi.htm
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Entering jhana and then leting your focus loose

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:14 am

:goodpost:
pegembara wrote:You might find this useful, hopefully.

When piti arises one feels an indescribable pleasure, which only those who experience can appreciate. Sukha (pleasure) arises, and there is also the quality of one-pointedness. There are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata. These five qualities all converge at the one place. Even though they are different qualities they are all collected in the one place, and we can see them all there, just like seeing many different kinds of fruit in the one bowl. Vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata -- we can see them all in the one mind, all five qualities. If one were to ask, "How is there vitakka, how is there vicara, how are there piti and sukha?..." it would be difficult to answer, but when they converge in the mind we will see how it is for ourselves.

At this point our practice becomes somewhat special. We must have recollection and self-awareness and not lose ourselves. Know things for what they are. These are stages of meditation, the potential of the mind. Don't doubt anything with regard to the practice. Even if you sink into the earth or fly into the air, or even "die" while sitting, don't doubt it. Whatever the qualities of the mind are, just stay with the knowing. This is our foundation: to have sati, recollection, and sampajañña, self-awareness, whether standing, walking, sitting, or reclining. Whatever arises, just leave it be, don't cling to it. Be it like or dislike, happiness or suffering, doubt or certainty, contemplate with vicara and gauge the results of those qualities. Don't try to label everything, just know it. See that all the things that arise in the mind are simply sensations. They are transient. They arise, exist and cease. That's all there is to them, they have no self or being, they are neither "us" nor "them." They are not worthy of clinging to, any of them.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... amadhi.htm



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