The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

[santa100]

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being. If we only look at it from within the regular biological scope, none of the supernatural attainments of the Buddha and His noble disciples mentioned in many suttas would even be possible (the Chalabhinna of supernormal powers/psychic powers, clairaudience, telepathy, recollection of past lives, clairvoyance, ...)..

[daverupa]

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being.

Alternatively, through the practice of various meditations one might produce all manner of phantasms which receive culturally-supported explanations, thereby preventing any inclination toward critical inquiry or independent verification.

[polarbuddha101]

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being. If we only look at it from within the regular biological scope, none of the supernatural attainments of the Buddha and His noble disciples mentioned in many suttas would even be possible (the Chalabhinna of supernormal powers/psychic powers, clairaudience, telepathy, recollection of past lives, clairvoyance, ...)..

Retrocognition and clairvoyance are different than flying through the air, walking on water, or breathing through skin that doesn't breathe. One group requires extra-sensory perception to be real while the other group requires that the laws of physics or the laws of the human body be broken as if we're in the matrix.

Of course, retrocognition and clairvoyance may also be impossible and any experiences of said things hallucinations or phantasms as Dave put it. Just saying, if you're going to accept rebirth you have to accept ESP but that doesn't mean you have to accept all the other weird impossible stuff that happens in the suttas.

[santa100]

daverupa wrote:
...through the practice of various meditations one might produce all manner of phantasms which receive culturally-supported explanations

If the claim came from regular folks, it'd be no problem. But from Ajahn Lee, Ajahn Chah, and especially the Buddha? Wonder what the odds of that might be..

"...With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the divine ear-element. He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. Just as if a man traveling along a highway were to hear the sounds of kettledrums, small drums, conchs, cymbals, and tom-toms. He would know, 'That is the sound of kettledrums, that is the sound of small drums, that is the sound of conchs, that is the sound of cymbals, and that is the sound of tom-toms.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the divine ear-element. He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )

[santa100]

polarbuddha101 wrote:
Retrocognition and clairvoyance are different than flying through the air, walking on water, or breathing through skin that doesn't breathe. One group requires extra-sensory perception to be real while the other group requires that the laws of physics or the laws of the human body be broken as if we're in the matrix.

I myself do have reservation about the flying through the air and walking on water stuff. But the laws of physics and of human body are not permanent. They subject to change just like other conditioned phenomena. About how much change is possible, well I already mentioned one would have to wait til they can experience it for themselves. So basically my position is to "wait and see" instead of immediately conclude it as nonsense..

[LonesomeYogurt]

It should be pointed out that Ajahn Lee's talk about the breath and breath channels and all that are definitely not literal, but conceptual ways of understanding the link between breath and awareness. Although it's hard to separate where the literal stuff ends and the metaphor begins, I don't think Ajahn Lee or Thanisarro are actually claiming that we really breath through our skin. When I spoke with Thanisarro, he always seemed to be clear that the through-the-skin concept was more the encourage relaxed and non-forced breathing.

[daverupa]

But from Ajahn Lee, Ajahn Chah, and especially the Buddha? Wonder what the odds of that might be..

Pretty good, since the first two names are exploring the same materials we are, and those materials were themselves shepherded to us via that cultural matrix to which I referred. If you like, I can cite some mysticism from other religious traditions which contradicts Buddhist cosmology et al, and ask you a question worded per this quote, above. I predict such an effort wouldn't convince you, nor should it, which is why this line of reasoning is simply dead in the water.

No sure bets in the realm of likelihoods, however, so it seems as though it's going to have to remain conjecture for us.

[santa100]

daverupa wrote:
Pretty good, since the first two names are exploring the same materials we are, and those materials were themselves shepherded to us via that cultural matrix to which I referred

Actually I already mentioned my position as "wait and see", not "convinced" but also not "it's all cultural matrix" as how you view it. Simply because it requires just as much proof if not more to prove that yep, it's definitely a cultural herb to spice things up..

[SarathW]

Is it possible air to get in to our body if you are not breathing?
What I meant was can't air go through your nostrils to lungs even if you are not breathing, as the same way air getting to a room?

[polarbuddha101]

Is it possible air to get in to our body if you are not breathing?
What I meant was can't air go through your nostrils to lungs even if you are not breathing, as the same way air getting to a room?

Air enters the lungs when the lungs expand thus sucking in air like a vacuum and then pushes air out when the lungs contract and as far as I know the lungs will always expand and contract so long as one is not purposely holding their breath and provided the person is not dead with the exception perhaps of those rare instances in extreme cold when the heart seems to be not beating (and thus not circulating oxygen and blood through the body) but brain death has not occurred.

[porpoise]

So basically my position is to "wait and see" instead of immediately conclude it as nonsense..

Me too. I think an overly dismissive attitude is counterproductive - the attitude of "It can't exist because I haven't seen it".