The attainment of the fifth Jhàna breathing ceases.How?

[santa100]

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being. If we only look at it from within the regular biological scope, none of the supernatural attainments of the Buddha and His noble disciples mentioned in many suttas would even be possible (the Chalabhinna of supernormal powers/psychic powers, clairaudience, telepathy, recollection of past lives, clairvoyance, ...)..

[daverupa]

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being.

Alternatively, through the practice of various meditations one might produce all manner of phantasms which receive culturally-supported explanations, thereby preventing any inclination toward critical inquiry or independent verification.

[Polar Bear]

I'd suppose when one's reached such advanced stages of meditation, one'd be able to push beyond the physiological/mental ceiling of regular human being. If we only look at it from within the regular biological scope, none of the supernatural attainments of the Buddha and His noble disciples mentioned in many suttas would even be possible (the Chalabhinna of supernormal powers/psychic powers, clairaudience, telepathy, recollection of past lives, clairvoyance, ...)..

Retrocognition and clairvoyance are different than flying through the air, walking on water, or breathing through skin that doesn't breathe. One group requires extra-sensory perception to be real while the other group requires that the laws of physics or the laws of the human body be broken as if we're in the matrix.

Of course, retrocognition and clairvoyance may also be impossible and any experiences of said things hallucinations or phantasms as Dave put it. Just saying, if you're going to accept rebirth you have to accept ESP but that doesn't mean you have to accept all the other weird impossible stuff that happens in the suttas.

[santa100]

daverupa wrote:
...through the practice of various meditations one might produce all manner of phantasms which receive culturally-supported explanations

If the claim came from regular folks, it'd be no problem. But from Ajahn Lee, Ajahn Chah, and especially the Buddha? Wonder what the odds of that might be..

"...With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the divine ear-element. He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. Just as if a man traveling along a highway were to hear the sounds of kettledrums, small drums, conchs, cymbals, and tom-toms. He would know, 'That is the sound of kettledrums, that is the sound of small drums, that is the sound of conchs, that is the sound of cymbals, and that is the sound of tom-toms.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the divine ear-element. He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

[santa100]

polarbuddha101 wrote:
Retrocognition and clairvoyance are different than flying through the air, walking on water, or breathing through skin that doesn't breathe. One group requires extra-sensory perception to be real while the other group requires that the laws of physics or the laws of the human body be broken as if we're in the matrix.

I myself do have reservation about the flying through the air and walking on water stuff. But the laws of physics and of human body are not permanent. They subject to change just like other conditioned phenomena. About how much change is possible, well I already mentioned one would have to wait til they can experience it for themselves. So basically my position is to "wait and see" instead of immediately conclude it as nonsense..

[LonesomeYogurt]

It should be pointed out that Ajahn Lee's talk about the breath and breath channels and all that are definitely not literal, but conceptual ways of understanding the link between breath and awareness. Although it's hard to separate where the literal stuff ends and the metaphor begins, I don't think Ajahn Lee or Thanisarro are actually claiming that we really breath through our skin. When I spoke with Thanisarro, he always seemed to be clear that the through-the-skin concept was more the encourage relaxed and non-forced breathing.

[daverupa]

But from Ajahn Lee, Ajahn Chah, and especially the Buddha? Wonder what the odds of that might be..

Pretty good, since the first two names are exploring the same materials we are, and those materials were themselves shepherded to us via that cultural matrix to which I referred. If you like, I can cite some mysticism from other religious traditions which contradicts Buddhist cosmology et al, and ask you a question worded per this quote, above. I predict such an effort wouldn't convince you, nor should it, which is why this line of reasoning is simply dead in the water.

No sure bets in the realm of likelihoods, however, so it seems as though it's going to have to remain conjecture for us.

[santa100]

daverupa wrote:
Pretty good, since the first two names are exploring the same materials we are, and those materials were themselves shepherded to us via that cultural matrix to which I referred

Actually I already mentioned my position as "wait and see", not "convinced" but also not "it's all cultural matrix" as how you view it. Simply because it requires just as much proof if not more to prove that yep, it's definitely a cultural herb to spice things up..

[SarathW]

Is it possible air to get in to our body if you are not breathing?
What I meant was can't air go through your nostrils to lungs even if you are not breathing, as the same way air getting to a room?

[Polar Bear]

Is it possible air to get in to our body if you are not breathing?
What I meant was can't air go through your nostrils to lungs even if you are not breathing, as the same way air getting to a room?

Air enters the lungs when the lungs expand thus sucking in air like a vacuum and then pushes air out when the lungs contract and as far as I know the lungs will always expand and contract so long as one is not purposely holding their breath and provided the person is not dead with the exception perhaps of those rare instances in extreme cold when the heart seems to be not beating (and thus not circulating oxygen and blood through the body) but brain death has not occurred.

[Spiny Norman]

So basically my position is to "wait and see" instead of immediately conclude it as nonsense..

Me too. I think an overly dismissive attitude is counterproductive - the attitude of "It can't exist because I haven't seen it".

[SarathW]

Some info regarding op:

=================================
In discerning41 the formation is gross, and it is subtle in the
first jhána access; also it is gross in that (and) subtle in the first
jhána; in the first jhána and second jhána access it is gross, (and)
in the second jhána subtle; in the second jhána and third jhána
access it is gross, (and) in the third jhána subtle; in the third
jhána and fourth jhána access it is gross, and in the fourth jhána
it is exceedingly subtle and even reaches suspension. This is the
opinion of the Dìgha and Saíyutta reciters. But the Majjhima
reciters would have it that it is more subtle in the access than in
the jhána immediately below, (saying) “in the first jhána it is
gross, in the second jhána access it is subtle” (and so on). It is
however, the opinion of all that the occurrence of the bodily
formation at the time of not discerning is tranquillized at the
time of discerning; the bodily formation that arose at the time of
discerning is tranquillized in the first jhána access … the bodily
formation that arose in the fourth jhána access is tranquillized in
the fourth jhána. This is the method in so far as concerns


Page 20

http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdf

[seeker242]

"The fifth through the eighth jhanas are the “absorptions without form.” This is because they refer to states of consciousness where there is no perception of a form or body." http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... y_of_Space

"The immaterial jhanas are designated, not by numerical names like their predecessors, but by the names of their objective spheres: the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.[18] They receive the designation "immaterial" or " formless" (arupa) because they are achieved by surmounting all perceptions of material form," http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 1.html#ch4

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, Ananda, he could..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Where does it say that the body actually stops breathing? Everything I have seen says that the perception of body breathing ceases, not the actual body breathing? AKA no longer "percipient of... wind with regard to ... wind"

percipient
adj.
Having the power of perceiving

If you no longer have any perception of body or breathing, you could rightly say "breathing has ceased" while the body is still breathing all by itself.

[Zom]

Sutta SN 36.11 says about "in-out breathing" and not about "perception of in-out breathing". So yes, breath completely stops in 4th jhana. As well as all mental formations completely stop in sannya-vedaita-nirodha. And as all defilements stop when reaching arahantship ,)

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications.
- When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
- When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased.
- When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased.
- When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
- When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased.
- When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

[seeker242]

Sutta SN 36.11 says about "in-out breathing" and not about "perception of in-out breathing". So yes, breath completely stops in 4th jhana. As well as all mental formations completely stop in sannya-vedaita-nirodha. And as all defilements stop when reaching arahantship ,)

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications.
- When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.
- When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased.
- When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased.
- When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
- When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
- When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased.
- When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

Is there some other sutta to corroborate the idea that "in and out breathing" refers to the autonomic physical activity of the body and not the mental activity of the mind with regards to "in and out breathing"?