Page 3 of 12

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:29 pm
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote: With respect Tilt I think you really need to go back and read over what I actually said. Have I said something that is not correct?
If you are saying that Goenka or Mahasi Sayadaw are out of line with the Theravada and the teachings of the Buddha, then yes, you have said something quite incorrect.
Well I never even mentioned Mahasi Sayadaw.
Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:44 pm
by marc108
Mr Man wrote:The format and technique do not come from the suttas.

even hardline Sutta-based teachers like Taan Geoff say that Goenkas sweeping techniques are in line with the Buddhas approach to meditation... ardency, mindfulness and alertness. although i dont know much about the format and theories, or anything beyond the technique it self.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"In a "scanning" or "body sweep" practice, mindfulness means remembering to stick with the process of scanning the body, while alertness would mean seeing the subtle sensations of the body being scanned. Ardency would mean sticking with the scanning process and trying to be ever more sensitive to the subtlest sensations. As in the previous case, these activities are related to factors of jhāna, and the process, if conducted in line with the texts, should culminate in a state of full-bodied singleness, at which time the motion of the scanning can be brought to stillness, and the mind can enter deeper concentration."

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:18 pm
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.
Wrong about what?

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:20 pm
by tiltbillings
MM wrote:
tilt wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Well I never even mentioned Mahasi Sayadaw.
Fine, but you are still quite wrong about Goenka.
Wrong about what?
That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:34 pm
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.
Okay. I don't think that the Buddha taught the "technique" and format that is used by Goenka, which is not a problem in and of itself. I don't think Goenka's organization can be considered to be mainstream Theravada. It is it's own little subgroup to my mind. And more distinct than many of the other subgroups

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:36 pm
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That Goenka is not in line with Theravada and not in line with the Buddha's teachings.
Okay. I don't think that the Buddha taught the "technique" and format that is used by Goenka, which is not a problem in and of itself. I don't think Goenka's organization can be considered to be mainstream Theravada. It is it's own little subgroup to my mind. And more distinct than many of the other subgroups
To your mind.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:51 am
by Mr Man
Tilt, do you think the Buddha taught the "technique"?

To support my view that Goenka's organization is not mainstream Theravada have a look at their website:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think Goenkaji perceives his organization to be part of the wider Theravada community?

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:29 am
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:Tilt, do you think the Buddha taught the "technique"?
The Buddha taught no technique, which is why there are various differing techniques developed to put the Buddha's teachings into practice.
To support my view that Goenka's organization is not mainstream Theravada have a look at their website:

http://www.dhamma.org/en/goenka.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And who are you trying to convince here?
Do you think Goenkaji perceives his organization to be part of the wider Theravada community?
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:07 am
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha taught no technique
Ahh so you agree with me?
And who are you trying to convince here?
I'm not trying to convince anyone.
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
Well in my experience the organization does not embrace it. I've heard the students are not encouraged to sit with practioners from outside their tradition + or visit instutions from outside their tradition.

Tilt are you a student of Goenka?

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:22 am
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha taught no technique
Ahh so you agree with me?
It is an interesting question as to what the Buddha taught. Every teacher, or every "independent" practitioner, is going to develop their own, or adopt and adapt other peoples', techniques in response to what they understand the Buddha's teachings to be.

[
You will have to ask him, but I would say that he fits in.
Well in my experience the organization does not embrace it. I've heard the students are not encouraged to sit with practioners from outside their tradition + or visit instutions from outside their tradition.
Yes and no, but the Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tilt are you a student of Goenka?
Nope, but I know people who are.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:30 am
by Spiny Norman
DAWN wrote:Actually, IMO , in long meditation sitting, it's not a mental activity, but a bodily pain what is realy difficult. :rolleye:
I use a comfy chair these days, it's much more practical. :tongue:

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 pm
by daverupa
tiltbillings wrote:It is an interesting question as to what the Buddha taught. Every teacher, or every "independent" practitioner, is going to develop their own, or adopt and adapt other peoples', techniques in response to what they understand the Buddha's teachings to be.
On that note:
MN 101 wrote:And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress resulting from the cause of stress for which there is dispassion through the development of equanimity is exhausted.
MN 57 wrote:"What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:40 pm
by tiltbillings
So he exerts a fabrication against
It will be worth the effort to look at the Pali of this and other translations.

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:06 pm
by Mr Man
tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/

Re: vipassana craziness

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:43 pm
by tiltbillings
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Goenka and his organization has done a great promote Theravada. http://www.pariyatti.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From you link I saw John Coleman has died, which is sad news.
http://www.imcitalia.it/
It is sad. Also, I hoped that you saw something else from that link.