Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
zavk wrote:I am, however, curious about the part that says 'internally/externally'. These two terms are not further elaborated in the Satipatthana Sutta. But to sum up Ven. Analayo's arguments very briefly, he examines two ways of interpreting 'internally/externally'.

The first way of interpreting follows the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, which interprets 'internally/externally' to encompass phenomenon arising in oneself and others. So, when one contemplates body/feelings/mind/dhammas, one contemplates them in oneself and in others. We of course cannot read the minds of others. But reading the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, Ven. Analayo suggests that we can direct mindfulness towards the outer manifestations of others (facial expressions, posture, movements, etc) so as to practice satipatthana 'externally'.

The second way of interpretating is suggested by some contemporary teachers who interpret 'internally/externally' to refer to what is inside of the body and what is on the outside of the body--i.e. the surface of the skin. I won't reproduce Ven. Analayo's arguments in detail here. But he more or less argues that while such interpretations are not entirely unfounded and have their practical benefits, they have their limits (e.g. it becomes hard to maintain such a distinction when one begins to contemplate the dhammas).
I wonder if there is a third way... where internal refers to actual experience of x, and external refers to objective existence of x?

Any thoughts?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by Freawaru »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
zavk wrote:I am, however, curious about the part that says 'internally/externally'. These two terms are not further elaborated in the Satipatthana Sutta. But to sum up Ven. Analayo's arguments very briefly, he examines two ways of interpreting 'internally/externally'.

The first way of interpreting follows the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, which interprets 'internally/externally' to encompass phenomenon arising in oneself and others. So, when one contemplates body/feelings/mind/dhammas, one contemplates them in oneself and in others. We of course cannot read the minds of others. But reading the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, Ven. Analayo suggests that we can direct mindfulness towards the outer manifestations of others (facial expressions, posture, movements, etc) so as to practice satipatthana 'externally'.

The second way of interpretating is suggested by some contemporary teachers who interpret 'internally/externally' to refer to what is inside of the body and what is on the outside of the body--i.e. the surface of the skin. I won't reproduce Ven. Analayo's arguments in detail here. But he more or less argues that while such interpretations are not entirely unfounded and have their practical benefits, they have their limits (e.g. it becomes hard to maintain such a distinction when one begins to contemplate the dhammas).
I wonder if there is a third way... where internal refers to actual experience of x, and external refers to objective existence of x?

Any thoughts?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,

Good idea! :thumbsup:

To me this looks like the most promising theory so far. While being aware of other people is certainly important I don't think one can contemplate their "feelings" - at least not without some telepathy. And as far as I know not even all arahats have this iddhi. The second option has it's limits, too. But as you probably refer to during contemplation there are two perspectives that can even arise simultaneously: As if the object of observation is inside oneself and as if outside (the impression is a bit as if it belongs to someone else).

This is not so surprising actually. In dream our whole scenery is based on our own mind - one can shift perspective from the one who is hunted to the one who hunts for example as both are generated by the same mind. Our general perspective of inside us versus outside us (or ourselves in contrast to other person or physical objects) is mind generated and flexible and can even be dysfunctional (like when people get the feeling it is not themselves who control their body).
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by rowyourboat »

I think the suttas are quite clear without us having to generate our own theories which can muddy the waters a bit:

§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18

Knowing mental qualities of others is not through telepathy- it is part of one of the insight knowledges: sammasana nana- where one realized that ALL phenomena, past present future, near, far, gross, subtle are subject to the same laws of the three characteristics -by inference (even though he has not experienced all phenomena). Otherwise he would not cling to phenomena he has experienced and still cling to others he has not experienced- thereby making nibbana impossible.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by Freawaru »

Hi RYB,
rowyourboat wrote:I think the suttas are quite clear
I happen to disagree. :toast:
he gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
"Externally of the mind of others???" What does this mean?

without us having to generate our own theories which can muddy the waters a bit:

§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18

Knowing mental qualities of others is not through telepathy- it is part of one of the insight knowledges: sammasana nana- where one realized that ALL phenomena, past present future, near, far, gross, subtle are subject to the same laws of the three characteristics -by inference (even though he has not experienced all phenomena).
If he knows this inside another person - the moral issues are severe. I mean, we don't have laws against invading the personal sphere of other persons in this way but if what you suggest is true maybe we should.


Also, it seems to me as if the translation can lead one to think in one direction or in another. Some translations use "internally and externally" and others "in regard to himself - in regard to another" like here http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... assana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Freawaru wrote:Also, it seems to me as if the translation can lead one to think in one direction or in another. Some translations use "internally and externally" and others "in regard to himself - in regard to another" like here http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... assana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is a good point - does anyone know what the Pali words are that are being translated here as 'internally' and 'externally'?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by rowyourboat »

Internally (ajjatta) he is knowing and seeing it within himself. Externally (bahidda), according to the sutta is about seeing the same things in another. Let's look at this rationally: we can't know the minds of others- if that were the case every arahanth would require very special powers and we know this is not the case (based on suttas). The only way we can know of others is by being mindful of their verbal and non- verbal communication, and understanding that their experience of their bodies and minds are the same as ours.

The point of satipatthana practice is to comprehensively let go (of the four foundations, ie everything) at the deepest level. This level of understanding of others experience is enough to do that.

It's possible to make this a problem but there is no other reasonable way to understand it.

With metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by Freawaru »

Hi RYB,
rowyourboat wrote:Internally (ajjatta) he is knowing and seeing it within himself. Externally (bahidda), according to the sutta is about seeing the same things in another. Let's look at this rationally: we can't know the minds of others- if that were the case every arahanth would require very special powers and we know this is not the case (based on suttas). The only way we can know of others is by being mindful of their verbal and non- verbal communication, and understanding that their experience of their bodies and minds are the same as ours.
I know this is the standard interpretation but frankly I doubt that one CAN know the mind processes of other persons in the same way as one's own (without telepathy that is). But the phrases for "externally" in the satipatthana are identical to the ones for "internally" and I interpret this as being able to know in very the same way, to contemplate in the very same way, meaning one can directly know feeling and so on.
It's possible to make this a problem but there is no other reasonable way to understand it.
I still think Retro's way is quite reasonable. It agrees with experience, is scientifically plausible and interprets the sutta in context of meditation.

What speaks against it from your point of view?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:

I wonder if there is a third way... where internal refers to actual experience of x, and external refers to objective existence of x?
And how would we know the objective existence of "x" outside of one's experience of "x"?

To quote something I have quoted here before:
Recall that from the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali, the ‘All’ {SN IV 15} is composed entirely of phassa, contact between sense base and sense object. We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. The discourses of the Pali describe an individual world of experience as composed of various mental and physical factors, nama and rupa. These two are not the separate, independent worlds that Rene Descartes envisioned.

"…the Buddha spoke of the human person as a psychophysical personality (namarupa). Yet the psychic and the physical were never discussed in isolation, nor were they viewed as self-subsistent entities. For him, there was neither a ‘material-stuff’ nor a ‘mental-stuff’, because both are results of reductive analyses that go beyond experience."53

The physical and mental aspects of human experience are continually arising together, intimately dependent on one another.

53 Kalupahana 1976: 73, refers to D.15{II,62}, where the Buddha speaks of both
physicality and mentality mutually dependent forms of contact (phassa).
Physicality is described as contact with resistance (pat.ighasamphassa),
mentality as contact with concepts (adhivacanasamphassa).


STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis, page 190-1. http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Taking Occam's razor, the the traditional gloss of "internal" and "external" - which find more support from the suttas, giving us a less convoluted way having to read the texts - is the more meaningful way of reading and practicing the satipatthana. In this I agree strongly with Ven Analayo in his SATIPATTHANA: The Direct Path to Realization., page 94 ff.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I wonder if there is a third way... where internal refers to actual experience of x, and external refers to objective existence of x?
And how would we know the objective existence of "x" outside of one's experience of "x"?
Excellent point - it could only be conceptual (i.e. in one's experience only as mind consciousness), but by being part of mind-consciousness it would be little different to the majority of satipatthana contemplations. Maybe seeing the rising and passing away of our conceptual ideas about these things might have some value. Knowing how unarisen conceptualisations come be etc.

I'm certainly not saying what I put forward is indeed the correct and intended understanding of the sutta, but I'd never heard this particular distinction mentioned before, and when reading through Buddharakkhita's translation of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, it's just something that crossed my mind, as a concept, as mind consciousness, which arose and passed away.

:tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Post by mettafuture »

What do you think the lines "internally and externally" in the Satipatthana Sutta are referring to?

I think they're referring to ways to contemplate objects within (or during) and outside of (during daily life) meditation practice.
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Post by bodom »

There are a few different interpretations on this matter, for a full account see Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization by Analayo.
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The easiest and most practical way for me is to see "Internal" as representing my experience of Body, Feelings etc. and "External" as others experience of Body, Feelings etc.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
mettafuture
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:13 pm

Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Post by mettafuture »

bodom wrote:There are a few different interpretations on this matter, for a full account see Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization by Analayo.
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I own it. :D
The easiest and most practical way for me is to see "Internal" as representing my experience of Body, Feelings etc. and "External" as the experience of others.

:anjali:
That method works for some of the meditations, but, for example, how do you contemplate someone else's body?
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Post by bodom »

mettafuture wrote:That method works for some of the meditations, but, for example, how do you contemplate someone else's body?
Analayo covers that pg. 97.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Moggalana
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:31 am
Location: Germany

Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Post by Moggalana »

Additionally: Satipatthana Sutta - part 3 - Concentration And Contemplation He talks about contemplating body externally at about 41:00
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.
User avatar
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Post by Goedert »

zavk wrote:Hi friends,

This line from the story posted by Chris reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask:
"We must constantly keep ourselves under observation--not only others. In fact, let others be our mirror wherein we may discover our own defilements."
In the Satipatthana Sutta, there is a line that goes:

"In this way he abides contemplating the body/feelings/mind/dhammas internally, or he abides contemplating the body/feelings/mind/dhammas externally, or he abides contemplating the body/feelings mind/dhammas both internally and externally..."

This is the part of sutta that Ven. Analayo calls the 'refrain', the modus operandi of satipatthana, if you like. He suggests that the "task of this 'refrain' is to direct attention to those aspects that are essential for the proper practice of each exercise" (p. 92). The refrain also tells us to contemplate the 'arising/passing', with 'bare knowledge and continuous mindfulness' and 'independently without clinging'.

I am, however, curious about the part that says 'internally/externally'. These two terms are not further elaborated in the Satipatthana Sutta. But to sum up Ven. Analayo's arguments very briefly, he examines two ways of interpreting 'internally/externally'.

The first way of interpreting follows the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, which interprets 'internally/externally' to encompass phenomenon arising in oneself and others. So, when one contemplates body/feelings/mind/dhammas, one contemplates them in oneself and in others. We of course cannot read the minds of others. But reading the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, Ven. Analayo suggests that we can direct mindfulness towards the outer manifestations of others (facial expressions, posture, movements, etc) so as to practice satipatthana 'externally'.

The second way of interpretating is suggested by some contemporary teachers who interpret 'internally/externally' to refer to what is inside of the body and what is on the outside of the body--i.e. the surface of the skin. I won't reproduce Ven. Analayo's arguments in detail here. But he more or less argues that while such interpretations are not entirely unfounded and have their practical benefits, they have their limits (e.g. it becomes hard to maintain such a distinction when one begins to contemplate the dhammas).

So, leaving aside the more contemporary interpretations, I have some questions about the more 'classical' way of understanding 'internally/externally'. Following the sequence stated in the Satipatthana Sutta, one first practices internal contemplation, which then becomes the basis of external contemplation. And finally one contemplates both internally and externally. Ven. Analayo thus opines that "indeed to be aware of one's feelings and reactions enables one to understand the feelings and reactions of others more easily". He adds:
'For a balanced development of awareness, this shift from the internal to the external is of considerable importance. Awareness applied only internally can lead to self-centredness. One can become excessively concerned with what happens with and within oneself while at the same time remaining unaware of how one's action and behaviour affect others. Practicing both internal and external satipatthana can prevent such lopsidedness and achieve a skillful balance between introspection and extroversion' (p. 98).
When we talk about meditation we often speak of it as a kind of introspective practice. But in light of the above, we see that it shouldn't be only introspective. Indeed, the force of introspection should propel one towards a certain extroversion, a greater sensitivity to the thoughts and feelings of others.

So my questions are: Do you actually make a conscious effort to contemplate 'externally'? Should we attempt to do so? Or is this something that happens 'naturally' as we build up the momentum of 'internal' contemplation?

Metta,
zavk
Hello friend. The point is to get the "principle" involve in it, so you will know what is happining in the external.

:namaste:
Post Reply