Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby pegembara » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:44 am

This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:05 am

Hi pegembara,
pegembara wrote:This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"...

This is certainly an interesting passage. However, from suttas such as
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
it seems that the "cessation of perception & feeling" state is much "deeper" than the four jhana levels described in the suttas.

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:28 pm

pegembara wrote:This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."


pegembara

Yes that is one text description of the Cessation of perception and feeling and that's what happens after the relm of neither perception nor non perception. I've never experienced that. Thats super super super deep in mediation.

Maha Metta!
Zach
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby pegembara » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:20 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi pegembara,
pegembara wrote:This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"...

This is certainly an interesting passage. However, from suttas such as
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
it seems that the "cessation of perception & feeling" state is much "deeper" than the four jhana levels described in the suttas.

:anjali:
Mike


That is the "9th" jhana - see Anupada sutta. This what Ajahn Brahm has to say-

Another way of viewing the Jhanas and the Four Immaterial Attainments is by placing them in the sequence of gradual cessation. The process that leads into the First Jhana is the cessation of the world of the five senses together with the body and all doing. The path from the First Jhana to the Fourth Jhana is the cessation of that part of the "mind that recognizes pleasure and displeasure. The road from the Fourth Jhana to the Fourth Immaterial Attainment is the cessation, almost, of the remaining activity or the mind called "knowing." And the last step is the cessation of the last vestige of knowing. Through Jhanas and the Immaterial Attainments, first one lets go of the body and the world of the five senses. Then one lets go of the doer. Then one lets go of pleasure and displeasure. The one lets go of space and consciousness. Then one lets go of all knowing. When °I1_ lets go of an object, the object disappears, ceases. If it remains, one hasn't let go. Through letting go of all knowing, knowing ceases. This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... Jhanas.htm
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:43 pm

pegembara,

I've never viewed the complete cessation of perception and feeling as a Jhana. It's just the mind turning off then on again. There's nothing to percieve because perception is not happening. It's like someone turning the power off to a robot then on again. The robot wont know it was turned off until it gets turned back on again... with us I believe when this happens our mindfulness is sooo razor sharp and laser powerful that we see something wonderful! Wisdoms eye is opened when we see our mind working at the most fundamental level... a 12 link cognition chain of events called Dependent Origination. I believe this happens after we leave the state of cessaton of perception and feeling.
Much Metta!
zach

That is the "9th" jhana - see Anupada sutta. This what Ajahn Brahm has to say-

Another way of viewing the Jhanas and the Four Immaterial Attainments is by placing them in the sequence of gradual cessation. The process that leads into the First Jhana is the cessation of the world of the five senses together with the body and all doing. The path from the First Jhana to the Fourth Jhana is the cessation of that part of the "mind that recognizes pleasure and displeasure. The road from the Fourth Jhana to the Fourth Immaterial Attainment is the cessation, almost, of the remaining activity or the mind called "knowing." And the last step is the cessation of the last vestige of knowing. Through Jhanas and the Immaterial Attainments, first one lets go of the body and the world of the five senses. Then one lets go of the doer. Then one lets go of pleasure and displeasure. The one lets go of space and consciousness. Then one lets go of all knowing. When °I1_ lets go of an object, the object disappears, ceases. If it remains, one hasn't let go. Through letting go of all knowing, knowing ceases. This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... Jhanas.htm[/quote]
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Nyana » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:49 pm

socoguy78 wrote:This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.

The cessation of perception and feeling is not the same as nibbāna.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:21 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.

The cessation of perception and feeling is not the same as nibbāna.



I was trying to quote one of "pegembara's" post. It didn't get quoted right and now it looks like I wrote it. If you look a couple posts above the post you quoted me from you will notice pegembara writing what you quoted myself saying. I never wrote that. I AGREE the cessation of perception and feeling is NOT the same as nibbana. I believe Nibbana ocures after the cessation of perception and feeling when we see dependent origination both forwards and backwards... a 12 link cognition chain of events that happens super fast all the time in our minds. When we see dependent origination happening our bonds are released from seeing with wisdoms eye and that is Nibanna. No Fire... No more craving. The dependent origination link of craving is forever cut off stopping all links after craving from arrising in the mind. I believe that is Nibanna.

"Majjhima Nikaya- 131 Maha Kaccana and the One Single Excellent Night.
[The Maha Baccana Bhaddekaratta Sutta ]

( A lesson about the Past, Present and Future )
To begin with, the elder Maha Kaccana was teaching like this:

“Dependent on the eye, eye-forms and eye-consciousness; the meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one craves. What one craves, one becomes mentally involved with and expands upon. With what one has mentally expanded upon as the source, habitual tendencies tinged with mental involvement beset a person with respect to the past, future and present forms cognizable ……

AND then this same pattern is repeated for each of the sense organs.
The elder then expanded and linked this with the teaching of the Process of Dependent Origination and explained to the monks how everything is conditionally dependent on the preceding condition and ceases with the cessation of that preceding condition. In respect to this, it is also true of the Past, Present, and Future.



The Maha Kaccana Bhaddekarattan Sutta from the Majjhima Nikaya is also another illustration of Venerable Maha Kaccana’s gift for explaining this pattern of cognition. Look at this little adventure the monks had.

Once, a Bhikkhu named Samiddhi approached the Buddha and requested Him to dispense the Dhaddakaratta Sutta which is in general known to all the monks. The Buddha responded by memory to all the monks.



The Buddha responded by saying:

“Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes.
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.

Instead with insight let him see clearly
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakably.

Today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow death may come, who knows?
No bargain with Mortality can
Keep him and his hordes away.”

But one who dwells thus ardently
Relentlessly by day and night---
It is he (or she) the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has one fortunate attachment.”



“One who revives the past when one recollects the eye and the forms seen in the past, dwelling upon them with desire and lust. One builds up hope on the future when one sets one’s heart to experiencing future sense objects that one has not as yet encountered. One who does not bind himself to desire and lust resulting from past memories of sensory experiences is one who does not revive the past or build up hope on the future. Similarly, one whose mind is shackled by lust to the present sense faculties and their objects is one vanquished in regard to presently arisen states, while one who is not bound by lust to the present sense faculties is called one invincible in regard to presently arisen states.”

The elder then repeated the above explanation slowly using each of the other sense bases.

So this is just to let you see that the Buddha had a real position on this.

By practicing the 4 steps of Right Effort you can begin to re-train mind through a purification process.

1. Recognize when any unwholesome mind-state arises in mind…. By the change in tension and tightness that arises as it is coming up.( At first I was really slow with this and was int othe suffering before I could stop it. But then, I began to watch more closely with good observation HOW the thoughts were arising…. And I began to see the changing tension and tightness each time it happened. So I Recognized earlier and earlier, you see, and then I let go and relaxed and smiled;

2. Release the thought, let it fall away and just be there without any attention on it, and then Relax all left over tension and tightness in mind and body… and then;

3. Bring up a wholesome mind-state; the most wholesome mind-state is to RE- SMILE and RETURN to the most wholesome mind-state there is; to your object of meditation OR, if in daily life, this means “to lovingly come back to the task at hand with a smile and putting loving kindness into it..”;

4. Then keep this wholesome state going and REPEAT this cycle as needed to repeatedly retrain mind until one day it simply lets go by itself and you LAUGH!

What’s that you say? Oh. Certainl, I almost forgot!

The PRESENT. Well, Truth be known here, there is only one thing you need to learn about the present to help guide you in this game as you retrain your mind.

“What you frequently think about, that will become the inclination of your mind!”

MN-19:6

So you see now that everything is changing all the time and you too can change. You are not trapped by this, truly you are not. As you practice this game to purify mind, not only in meditation classes, but all the time in life, you will come to see how Impermanence, Suffering, and the Impersonal nature of everything actually work.

Each time you practice Right Effort, you are building Knowledge and Vision, which actually means, ‘ knowing by seeing’. You witness how Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta actually are for real. This was the way that the Buddha always taught. He guided you to investigate and see the true nature of everything.

I hope you will find this helpful and you will come to see that you are not helpless in this matter. You only needed some more knowledge about how to handle the retraining of mind, which, is actually perfecting the steps of RIGHT EFFORT!" What is in parentheses was written by Sister Khema, I just coppied and pasted.
Much metta! I will look for the whole 12 link dependent origination and input it in here or a different thread.
zach
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Nyana » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:07 pm

socoguy78 wrote:I was trying to quote one of "pegembara's" post. It didn't get quoted right and now it looks like I wrote it. If you look a couple posts above the post you quoted me from you will notice pegembara writing what you quoted myself saying. I never wrote that.

Sorry for the misquote. I hadn't been following the discussion as closely as I should have before replying.

socoguy78 wrote:I AGREE the cessation of perception and feeling is NOT the same as nibbana. I believe Nibbana ocures after the cessation of perception and feeling....

The arahant path and fruition can occur after emerging from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling, but even among arahants it's a path less traveled. The suttas tell us that in the Buddha's day there were more arahants liberated through discernment than those who were liberated both ways etc., and there's no reason to think that this situation changed later. E.g. SN 8.7 Pavāraṇā Sutta, informs us that of 500 arahants present on that occasion, 60 had triple knowledge, 60 had the six higher gnoses, 60 were liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimuttā, meaning jhānas & formless attainments), and the rest were liberated through discernment (paññāvimuttā). Liberation through discernment doesn't require the development of the formless attainments or the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling.

Moreover, for stream-entry, etc., the supramundane path arises immediately after a desire sphere cognition (kāmāvacara citta) conjoined with appropriate developmental qualities and knowledge.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:26 am

Ñāṇa wrote:The arahant path and fruition can occur after emerging from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling, but even among arahants it's a path less traveled. The suttas tell us that in the Buddha's day there were more arahants liberated through discernment than those who were liberated both ways etc., and there's no reason to think that this situation changed later. E.g. SN 8.7 Pavāraṇā Sutta, informs us that of 500 arahants present on that occasion, 60 had triple knowledge, 60 had the six higher gnoses, 60 were liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimuttā, meaning jhānas & formless attainments), and the rest were liberated through discernment (paññāvimuttā). Liberation through discernment doesn't require the development of the formless attainments or the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling.

Moreover, for stream-entry, etc., the supramundane path arises immediately after a desire sphere cognition (kāmāvacara citta) conjoined with appropriate developmental qualities and knowledge.


Interesting Nana. I will have to find that sutta and read it. I'm trying to remember, the different ways one can become an arahant is through remembering past lives, seeing those passing away and coming, and then the harder... as I understand going through all 8 jhanas then cessation of perception and feeling and coming out to see dependent origination. But also there are 8 different levels nibanna, 4 of them don't have the fruition, only the knowledge which can be lost if one strays off the path and ignores the first 5 precepts, and 4 do have the fruition which has the personality changes as well where the hindrences at different levels are no longer within us. I'm trying to rememeber which sutta has it in it describing each one. Maybe I will find it by tommorow.

I did get the Sutta with all of dependent origination... Majjhima Nakaya 38 has it all, but MN 9 has a lot of it in that sutta.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby pegembara » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:38 am

If I am not mistaken, meditation is only one of the ways when liberation occurs. The other times are while:
-listening to a Dhamma teaching
-reciting the Dhamma
-teaching the Dhamma
-reflecting on the Dhamma

Vimutt’āyatana Sutta

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 6-piya.pdf
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:01 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and air find no footing, where name-and-form are wholly destroyed, (DN 11,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, The "jewel" in the heart of the lotus.


The cessation of perception and feeling is not the same as nibbāna.


That does depend on how one translates the references to pariyāyena and nippariyāyenā in the entire Sāmaññavaggo of AN 9 (AN 9.42 - 9.51). There, the suttas say that the Buddha declared saññāvedayitanirodha to be, inter alia, sandiṭṭhika nibbāna/ nibbāna/parinibbāna/tadaṅganibbāna nippariyāyenā.

The jhanas and arupas are declared to be nibbāna etc, pariyāyena (ie nibbāna in a manner of speech/metaphorically). In contrast, the identification of saññāvedayitanirodha with nibbāna is made nippariyāyenā (ie literally).

The Comy gloss -

Pariyāyenāti ekena kāraṇena


looks strained, but what was the poor Commentator to do, if he was to comply with the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttarā versus lokiyā jhanas?
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Nyana » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:37 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The cessation of perception and feeling is not the same as nibbāna.

That does depend....

In keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga maintains that the cessation of perception and feeling, which is also called cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti), is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:

    As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:27 am

I think, you twice have the same idea, but you try to claim the source of difference stuffs.

One claim to the synonym, nibbāna--patipassaddhi by proper categorization, of "nirodhasamāpatti". This is paññatti, asaṅkhata, avijjamānā.

Another claim to the synonym, nibbāna--nissarana, of "anupādisesanibbāna". This is paramattha, saṅkhata, vijjamānā.

So you all think the same truth, in a difference view.

But, there will be better if we guess another mind harder more, isn't there ?
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Nyana » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:08 am

theY wrote:One claim to the synonym, nibbāna--patipassaddhi by proper categorization, of "nirodhasamāpatti". This is paññatti, asaṅkhata, avijjamānā.

Another claim to the synonym, nibbāna--nissarana, of "anupādisesanibbāna". This is paramattha, saṅkhata, vijjamānā.

Sorry, but your equations are a bit off. The cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti) is neither fabricated (saṅkhata) nor not-fabricated (asaṅkhata), but it is produced (nipphanna) and not unproduced (anipphanna). Therefore it has no correspondence with the asaṅkhatā dhātu. Moreover, there is no occurrence of consciousness during the cessation attainment, therefore no perception or knowledge. This is why the cessation attainment plays no direct role in the attainment of the supramundane paths and fruitions.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:27 am

^

Thank you, I had erred.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:39 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The cessation of perception and feeling is not the same as nibbāna.

That does depend....

In keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga maintains that the cessation of perception and feeling, which is also called cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti), is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:

    As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.



I think the Vsm analysis of saṅkhata makes sense within the framework of the Abhidhamma's dhamma and sabhava theory. AN 3.47's exposition of saṅkhata lends itself easily to the abhidhammika's rumination of dhamma and sabhava.

However, I suspect that the Abhidhammic usage of saṅkhata in the context of dhammas and sabhava is somewhat different from the suttas' treatment of the saṅkhata concept in the context of the jhanas and arupas, eg AN 11.17 and MN 52. In these pericopes, the technical terms used are abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ. These look just like synonyms arranged according to the waxing syllable principle. I'm fortified in this reading by the occurence of this same set in SN 12.37, where the terms are used to explain the outcome of old kamma. Clearly, the suttas place abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ squarely within DO's link of saṅkhāra.

I don't think it is possible to employ AN 3.47's and the consequential Abhidhammic saṅkhata theory to explain saṅkhata in the context of AN 11.17. The refrain about the jhanas and arupas being fabricated and intended clearly need to be explained by saṅkhata in the context of DO's link on saṅkhāra.

This ties in nicely with DN 9's position that the attainment of cessation is reached when one utterly ceases to ceteti and abhisaṅkharoti. This seems to fit nicely into Dependant Cessation's link between the non-arising of saṅkhāra and the non-arising of consciousness.

In short, nirodhasamāpatti would be asaṅkhata when viewed through idappaccayata, but would be neither saṅkhata nor asaṅkhata when viewed through the sabhava theory.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby SDC » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:16 pm

andre9999 wrote:Every time I read this topic it sounds like Pink Floyd.


:clap: For the win!
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby Nyana » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:18 pm

Sylvester wrote:In short, nirodhasamāpatti would be asaṅkhata when viewed through idappaccayata, but would be neither saṅkhata nor asaṅkhata when viewed through the sabhava theory.

In the Abhidhammapiṭaka, which predates the commentarial use of sabhāva language, nirodhasamāpatti doesn't play any significant part in the path of awakening. Moreover, the Theravāda has never accepted that nirodhasamāpatti is asaṅkhata because that would mean that there are two asaṅkhata-s, and that a produced meditative state is asaṅkhata, and that nirodhasamāpatti would have the same liberating role as the supramundane paths and fruitions, and so on. This is a specific point of controversy in the Kathāvatthu, where all of these alternatives are rejected (see Points of Controversy, pp. 190-91).
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:53 am

SDC wrote:
andre9999 wrote:Every time I read this topic it sounds like Pink Floyd.


:clap: For the win!


I don't understand :?:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone who can answer this question, "what is the difference between saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti and nibbāna", must have deep and clear understanding in "natthibhāva/nirodhabhāva upādāpaññatti" and "nibbānalakkhaṇa".

I want to describe more, but my english skill so week.
However, I can completely tell you twice "you are weak about paññatti knowledge.", because you talk about paññatti without direct reference to actual paññatti-lesson resource.

Asamūhapaññatti pana disākāsakālanimittābhāvanirodhādibhedā.

commentary:
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/abh06t.nrf12.xml

Abhāva-ggahaṇena bhāvanābalena appavattanasabhāvaṃ ākāsānañcāyatanajhānaṃ upādāya pavattaṃ ākiñcaññāyatanajhānārammaṇaṃ abhāvapaññattiṃ dasseti. Nirodha-ggahaṇena bhāvanābalena niruddhaṃ nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ nissāya paññattaṃ nirodhapaññattiṃ dasseti. Ādi-ggahaṇena khayādisabhāvaṃ taṃ taṃ dhammamupādāya paññāpiyamānaṃ aniccalakkhaṇādikaṃ saṅgaṇhāti. Sāpi hi disākāsādikā viya dhammasamūhamupādāya apaññattabhāvato asamūhapaññattiyevāti.

sub-commentary:
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/abh08t.nrf36.xml

More view of nibbāna (read carefully, keep your above link paññatti-uderstanding in mind before read below link):
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/abh06t.nrf11.xml

"Paramattha always clearly appear to paññā, if something blur, you just analysis it more."

Completely clear (for me :smile: .)

:anjali:
Last edited by theY on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:05 am

theY wrote:
SDC wrote:
andre9999 wrote:Every time I read this topic it sounds like Pink Floyd.


:clap: For the win!


I don't understand :?:

He's referring to this song:
Mother do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother do you think they'll like the song?
...
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pink+floyd ... 08791.html

:anjali:
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