Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Agmanellium
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:21 pm

Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Agmanellium »

"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer. Personally I beleive access consciousness, since not mentioned by the Buddha, to be the weak beginnings of the first jhanna that later comentators felt the need to distinguish from full jhanna emersion.
How do you know when it's jhanna?
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Ben »

Its worthwhile reviewing the literature including works by Ajahn Brahms, Ven Gunuratna, Vism, finally and not leastly, the Suttas.
If you have a teacher, it will also be worthwhile consulting with him/her.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Kenshou »

Depends who you ask. Here's a decent overview of the spectrum of opinions: http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; And not to be dismissive of your topic, but this subject has been discussed to death around here, I'm sure you can find plenty of good information scattered around the forums.

As long as you're doing something to help you gain concentration, whatever works.
User avatar
James the Giant
Posts: 791
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by James the Giant »

Agmanellium wrote:"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer.
No, definitely not. Having experienced a fair number of rapturous states during my meditation, I can say it's definitely possible to mistake simple bliss for the first Jhana. Bliss is very very nice, just as nice as the first Jhana in fact.
But the first Jhana has a very specific set of properties which are well recorded and written about in the sources others above have recommended.
I also recommend the Visuddhimagga, by Buddhaghosa, it's excellent once you find the bit you are looking for.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Nyana »

Agmanellium wrote:"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer. Personally I beleive access consciousness, since not mentioned by the Buddha, to be the weak beginnings of the first jhanna that later comentators felt the need to distinguish from full jhanna emersion.
How do you know when it's jhanna?
Hi Agmanellium,

It's better to just attend to the practice in the present. These audio mp3 teachings by Ven. Ṭhānissaro are very clear and to the point:

These teachings by Ven. Gunaratana may also be helpful. What is samatha-vipassanā? (Pt 1):



What is samatha-vipassanā? (Pt 2):



Why do some teachers warn against practicing jhāna-s?



What are the benefits of practicing jhāna-s? (Pt 1):



What are the benefits of practicing jhāna-s? (Pt 2):



All the best,

Geoff
User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by andre9999 »

Every time I read this topic it sounds like Pink Floyd.
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by rowyourboat »

Well to be honest, apart from 'you will just know it' reading or hearing these youtube clips/articles are going to be of much help as a man telling someone who has never seen the sea, about what the sea looks like.

It would make sense to read/watch as you practice.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Individual »

If I answered, it would be "speaking and listening," or "creating thoughts and receiving thoughts" instead of jhana. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
socoguy78
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

Agmanellium wrote:"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer. Personally I beleive access consciousness, since not mentioned by the Buddha, to be the weak beginnings of the first jhanna that later comentators felt the need to distinguish from full jhanna emersion.
How do you know when it's jhanna?
Taken from the "Mahjjhima Nikaya: The Middle Length Sayings" by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, this Sutta covers what was taught by the Buddha concerning the identification of what the student experiences while meditating in each of the Four Jhanas and the four Arupa Jhanas. This is Sariputta's account of the Jhannas... When experiencing a Jhanna you have less ignorance towards the 4 noble truths and dependent origination. As you go deeper there is less ignorance to the 4 noble truths and dependent origination.

1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika’s Park. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus: "Bhikkhus." - "Venerable, sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this:

2] "Bhikkhus, Sariputta is wise; Sariputta has great wisdom; Sariputta has wide wisdom; Sariputta has joyous wisdom; Sariputta has quick wisdom; Sariputta has keen wisdom; Sariputta has penetrative wisdom. During half a month, bhikkhus, Sariputta gained insight into states one by one as they occurred. Now Sariputta’ insights into states one by one as they occurred were this:

3] "Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the first Jhana, which is accompanied by thinking and examining thought, with joy and happiness born of seclusion.

4] "And those states in the first Jhana - the thinking, the examining, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; The contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

5] "Again, bhikkhus, with the stilling of thinking and examining thought, Sariputta entered and abided in the second Jhana, which has self-confidence and stillness of mind without thinking and examining thought, with joy and happiness born of unification.

6] "And the states in the second Jhana - the self-confidence, the joy, the happiness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood; ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

7] "Again, bhikkhus, with the fading away as well of joy, Sariputta abided in equanimity, and mindful, and fully aware, still feeling happiness with his body, he entered upon and abided in the third Jhana, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful’.

8] "And the states in the third Jhana - the equanimity, the happiness, the mindfulness, the full awareness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanish’. Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

9] "Again, bhikkhus, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the fourth Jhana, which has neither-pleasure-nor-pain and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

10] "And the states in the fourth Jhana - the equanimity, the neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, the mental unconcern due to tranquility, the purity of mindfulness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ’So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding those states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood, ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment he confirmed that there is.

11] "Again, bhikkhus, with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘Space is Infinite,’ Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of Infinite Space.

12] "And the states in the base of Infinite Space - the perception of the base of Infinite Space and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him they arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish’. Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

13] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of Infinite Space, aware that ‘Consciousness is Infinite’, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of ‘Infinite Consciousness’.

14] "And the states in the base of ‘Infinite Consciousness’ - the perception of the base of ‘Infinite Consciousness’ and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘ So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being: having been they vanish.’ Regarding those states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

15] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of Infinite Consciousness, aware that there is ‘Nothing’, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of ‘Nothingness’.

16] "And the states in the base of ‘Nothingness’ - the perception of the base of ‘Nothingness’ and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness, the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; know to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states not having been, come into to being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding these states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

17] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of ‘Nothingness’ Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

18] "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished. Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.

19] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.

20] "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the sates that had passed, ceased, and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.’ Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is no escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is not’.

21] "Bhikkhus, rightly speaking, were it to be said of anyone: ‘He has attained mastery and perfection in noble virtue, attained mastery and perfection in noble collectedness, attained mastery and perfection in noble wisdom, attained mastery and perfection in noble deliverance,’ it is of Sariputta indeed that rightly speaking this should be said.

22] "Bhikkhus, rightly speaking, were it to be said of anyone: ‘He is the son of the Blessed One, born of his breast, born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, an heir in the Dhamma, not an heir in material things,’ it is of Sariputta indeed that rightly speaking this should be said.

23] "Bhikkhus, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata is kept rolling rightly by Sariputta."

That is what the Blessed One said. The Bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One’s words.
Maarten
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Maarten »

The Buddha communicated the qualities of Jhana to us like this:
“There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation.
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.”
'Suppose there were a beetle, a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of him. He, because of that, would look down on other beetles: 'Yes, sirree! I am a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of me!' - SN 17.5
socoguy78
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by socoguy78 »

Maarten wrote:The Buddha communicated the qualities of Jhana to us like this:
“There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation.
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.
Again, there is the case where an individual, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.”
Who is the translator? Are they reliable? What publication did this come from?
Much Maha Metta,
Zach
Maarten
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by Maarten »

socoguy78 wrote: Who is the translator? Are they reliable? What publication did this come from?
Much Maha Metta,
Zach
Hi Zach,

If I am not mistaken this formula is found in many places, one such place is:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
'Suppose there were a beetle, a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of him. He, because of that, would look down on other beetles: 'Yes, sirree! I am a dung-eater, full of dung, gorged with dung, with a huge pile of dung in front of me!' - SN 17.5
ignobleone
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone »

Agmanellium wrote:"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer. Personally I beleive access consciousness, since not mentioned by the Buddha, to be the weak beginnings of the first jhanna that later comentators felt the need to distinguish from full jhanna emersion.
Bhante Gunaratana's advice is very important, i.e. don't forget to read the "text" (suttas.)
How do you know when it's jhanna?
Forget 2nd jhana and above until you can master the 1st. Focus on mastering the 1st jhana. A couple of clues you cannot find in commentaries:
- You know it's jhana if there's thunder going on when you're meditating but you don't know there's thunder.
- The pitisukha is born from the seclusion (withdrawal from sensuality). So, next time if you're meditating you feel a bliss but you still perceive anything from your sensory domains, that's not the pitisukha of the 1st jhana.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

See also The Great Jhana Debate
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 597#p70016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for some long discussions of interpretations. I

:anjali:
Mike
ignobleone
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Post by ignobleone »

mikenz66 wrote:See also The Great Jhana Debate
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 597#p70016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for some long discussions of interpretations. I

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks for the link. I already know it. The thread has become very long. It's difficult to navigate in a long thread like that, not easy for people to follow. If the layout of this forum is not sequential but hierarchical like Yahoo Groups, it'd be better since we can expand comments of interest and collapse the others, easier to jump over comments.

Anyway, I think there's nothing more left (which is substantial) about jhana to debate since it's already clear.
Post Reply