The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Alex123
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:30 pm

Daverupa,

You are exactly right. The suttas are filled with such kinds of statements. And I also feel that rūpasaññā is related to aggregate of form which are present in 4 Jhānas. What makes something an immaterial (rather than material) attainment is the absence of perception of matter.

rūpa/arūpa Jhana simply reinforce the presence of perception of matter in 4 Jhānas.

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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reflection
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby reflection » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:53 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby daverupa » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:30 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:54 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

rowyourboat
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:09 pm

Hi Alex, Sylvester,

Kama refers to those sense objects, from the five senses, that are enticing. The breath and one's own body is not.

To give up craving for sense objects is to give up the craving to see, to hear etc as well. This leads very well to internalising one's focus away from the 5 sense bases. But of course, the mind sense is intact- hence the action of the hindrances and the upakilesas (upakilesa sutta) remain. When even these are overcome we are heading into deep samadhi territory. The journey is well explained in positive terms in the anapanasati sutta (ie in reference to the changes of the breath, the arising of niramisa piti sukha and other changes to the mind). The upakilesa sutta mentions the light in some detail. That's how I see it, based on the suttas cross referenced with personal experience.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Alex123
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Freawaru
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Freawaru » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:49 pm


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reflection
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby reflection » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:43 pm


Nyana
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:14 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:31 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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reflection
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby reflection » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:53 pm


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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:11 pm

reflection,

have you read the whole thread to dismiss Nana so easily?
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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reflection
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby reflection » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:44 pm

I didn't read the whole thread because I'm not that interested in the sutta vs sutta approach on this subject, personally. I explained before why I'm not. But I don't see what that has to do with it. Even if Nana says a lot of wise things that doesn't mean the statement above is automatically also correct ;)

But as I've said before I've said practically all I've got to say and from now on it'll probably only go in circles. I think one should be able to support a statement like "this is a definition of wrong samadhi" with some argument, though. Because without arguments the topic becomes even more useless, no matter who's right or wrong.

I just want to add, volitions are without a self and this can be experienced in Jhana. Nothing wrong about that. The Buddha even called it right samadhi. :tongue: ;)

:focus:

With metta,
Reflection
:namaste:

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Alex123
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:20 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:33 am


Nyana
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:58 am


Sylvester
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:51 am

Last edited by Sylvester on Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sylvester
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:58 am


Sylvester
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:19 am


Nyana
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Nyana » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:55 am



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