jhanas and nirodha?...

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

Shuun wrote:Ok, my intuition tells me the main problem so far is this : avoidance of bright, 'blinding' light. Don't avoid it, don't look at the edge or away from it, don't move, just observe, focus straight into it, being at ease, you are not going to get blind, nothing bad is going to happen to your sight or anything. Just see what happens :)
Thank you for your comment. I find it precious. :anjali:

I'm not afraid of this light. Saying "blinding" was to emphasize its brightness and not a fear to get blind))
The only reason when I don't pay it attention is that if I look at it, I can't go further.
It seems to me it's because of some block still present in my mind and body. Some years ago I had no block and I could be for a long time in this white light. Now, avoiding it, I find some other way to get further (necessarily lying on back, not sitting).

Surely, you're right I should concentrate on this block and on keeping the white light. And I'll do it sitting)))
I'll do so and write here about what will happen.
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Pondera
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Pondera »

Akhandha wrote:
Pondera wrote: And are you certain you see a white light and not a blue light?
Yes, absolutely certain. White light, very bright, blinding my "eyes"
Do you not, by "eyes", in fact mean "mind"? And when you reach this state of "total absense", why do you not simply equate said state with pure "nothingness"?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Akhandha
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

Pondera wrote: Do you not, by "eyes", in fact mean "mind"?
Of course I do.
Pondera wrote: And when you reach this state of "total absense", why do you not simply equate said state with pure "nothingness"?
I don't know well buddhist terms and it's easier for me to say "There is no perception at all". When there is no perception, what can be said about the state? nothing.
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

This night I sat on my bed and concentrated on the block on my back.
More I concentrated on, more it became hotter. Finally, it was a very hot area there.
It gave me the possibility to stay sitting longer than usual.
My body and my neck bent backwards, it was very hot there.
Then, white light began to appear, suddenly, as if it shot through my body. The light appeared everywhere in space aroud me, like an ocean I'm in, there was no "white moon", no center to concentrate on.

Then, I went to sleep. All the rest of the night I was flying))) Not like a bird (as I usually do). I was flying sitting on an armchair :lol: I got to rise very high in the sky, which is not proper to me. I usually have problems to rise high there - like something doesn't let me go higher and fear appears.
This night it was wonderful. The colors were brighter than usual. I flied over rivers, forests, houses, and sea. The sea was especially beautiful, its waves were like made of clear blue light...
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Pondera »

Akhandha wrote:
Pondera wrote: Do you not, by "eyes", in fact mean "mind"?
Of course I do.
Just clarifying.
Pondera wrote: And when you reach this state of "total absense", why do you not simply equate said state with pure "nothingness"?
I don't know well buddhist terms and it's easier for me to say "There is no perception at all". When there is no perception, what can be said about the state? nothing.
That it is quiet? Still? Removed?

However, you are certain that you do not recall anything about the experience?

A Buddhist might be tempted to call this "nothingness" - but in at least one paticular sutta nothingness is given the attribute of contact.

But coming into contact with anything expresses some type of awareness.

Unfortunately, I cannot see a difference between what you describe and the experience of going unconscious!
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

Pondera wrote: Unfortunately, I cannot see a difference between what you describe and the experience of going unconscious!
Of course, unconcious. Nirodha is an unconcious state, isn't it?
About what consciousness can we say if there is no perceptioon there?

Let's look at this curious text: (It's curious for me too)

link - http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... .-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

7.2.2 True renunciation. The purpose of Buddhist mind-training is to learn to gradually let go of more and more consciousness. First, we let go of the distractions from the sense-doors; then we close the 5 physical sense-doors themselves (through samadhi). Then, directly experiencing the mind through dhyana, we allow mind-consciousness to cease. This is the true meaning of renunciation, the inner letting-go.
Brahmavamso explains this important process thus:
The whole purpose of these jhānas is to learn through practice, bit by bit, to let go of more and more consciousness. It‘s like slicing away at mind consciousness. Allowing consciousness to cease, by calming it, settling it, and allowing it to go to cessation. Then the consciousness com-pletely ceases for long periods of time in what‘s called nirodha-samapatti (the attainment of cess-ation). This is the cessation of all that is felt and all that‘s perceived (saa-vedayita-nirodha). Any person who experiences this attainment, they say, will be an arahant or an anagami after-wards. Why? Because they‘ve seen the end of consciousness, they‘ve touched that as an experi-ence. (Brahmavamso 2001:5, digital ed)
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by perkele »

Maybe this could be helpful? :shrug:
MN 111: One after another wrote:
...

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
So maybe the practical advice here, "emerging mindfully from that attainment" and "reviewing the past qualities that have ceased and changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'", again and again, rinse and repeat, until finally one day
Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.
Just some text I happened upon randomly. Thought it might fit here.

I don't know. I'm not an anagami.

:broke:
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

perkele

Thank you for te text.

I've got all different ideas about this state of "cessation":
1) It is very comfortable, it's a real rest.
2) It's really curious, in reality nothing exists.
3) It's totally unconcious. What's good in it?... What's good in feeling and perceing nothing?
4) Why do the buddhists long to attain this state? if (see p.3) and if Parinibbana is an end of existence.
5) I don't want to disappear like this, for eternity
6) I doubt Parinibbana will last eternally. The world will make the awareness appear again.

I will be very grateful if anybody will be able to explain to me what I've misundertood. :anjali:
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Mkoll »

Akhandha wrote:perkele

Thank you for te text.

I've got all different ideas about this state of "cessation":
1) It is very comfortable, it's a real rest.
2) It's really curious, in reality nothing exists.
3) It's totally unconcious. What's good in it?... What's good in feeling and perceing nothing?
4) Why do the buddhists long to attain this state? if (see p.3) and if Parinibbana is an end of existence.
5) I don't want to disappear like this, for eternity
6) I doubt Parinibbana will last eternally. The world will make the awareness appear again.

I will be very grateful if anybody will be able to explain to me what I've misundertood. :anjali:
What I think you've misunderstood is that you don't recognize you're holding two mutually exclusive views. You don't know that you've attained this state that is described in the suttas as "the cessation of perception and feeling," yet you talk as if you do. Why do I think this? You made this very thread expressing your puzzlement as to whether you've attained this state, yet you also speak as though you know you've attained it ("Why do the buddhists long to attain this state?").

I think that to clear up this misunderstanding, you should discern very clearly between what you believe and what you know.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Pondera »

Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment.
I think "entrance" into cessation is "conditioned" by non-grasping. Someone can enter on the basis of non-grasping and emerge on the intentional will to grasp at perception and feeling.

It's curious though. "He emerged mindfully.." - this does not necessarily mean that he remained in the attainment mindfully.

"Seeing with discernment" - tends to imply that awareness is present in cessation. It also implies that "seeing with discernment" is the faculty of "remaining in cessation".

For me, this entails that cessation is accompanied by "cognition". Otherwise, how would anyone see with discernment that the fermentations have ended?

The curious case of "non-perception" lingers. But, Buddhists adamantly defend their religion against nihilism. I can attest to "experiencing nothingness" - Just an empty, nausiating feelig which is hard to bare.

I usually fall asleep without knowing it. But I have had a taste of hypnogognia here and there. I didn't develop the "fortitude" as a child to stare it in the face from consciousness to dreaming. But I assume it is possible to do so fully mindful.

I'm sorry OP. I have little else in terms of answers. Happy searching!
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

Mkoll wrote: What I think you've misunderstood is that you don't recognize you're holding two mutually exclusive views. You don't know that you've attained this state that is described in the suttas as "the cessation of perception and feeling," yet you talk as if you do. Why do I think this? You made this very thread expressing your puzzlement as to whether you've attained this state, yet you also speak as though you know you've attained it ("Why do the buddhists long to attain this state?").

I think that to clear up this misunderstanding, you should discern very clearly between what you believe and what you know.
I see quite well that there are mutually exclusive views. It's because it seems to me really have attained nirodha, but I'm not 100% sure of it. So to tell, I have doubt and many questions which I can't make clear without other experienced persons who would tell me exactly what it is))
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by Akhandha »

Pondera wrote: It's curious though. "He emerged mindfully.." - this does not necessarily mean that he remained in the attainment mindfully.
"Seeing with discernment" - tends to imply that awareness is present in cessation. It also implies that "seeing with discernment" is the faculty of "remaining in cessation".
What mindfullness can be while any perception has ceased?
The moment of reappearing of the conciousness is seen with discernment AT THE MOMENT WHEN I emerge from cessation (if it's really a cessation, of course).
Pondera wrote: For me, this entails that cessation is accompanied by "cognition". Otherwise, how would anyone see with discernment that the fermentations have ended?
The end of fermetations is clearly seen BERORE the cessation. And after it, while emerging from it, there is some time when fermentations haven't begun yet.
Pondera wrote: I usually fall asleep without knowing it. But I have had a taste of hypnogognia here and there. I didn't develop the "fortitude" as a child to stare it in the face from consciousness to dreaming. But I assume it is possible to do so fully mindful.
Yes, I can go into sleep in full awareness. But the awareness in this case goes on while sleeping, no cessation.
Pondera wrote: I'm sorry OP. I have little else in terms of answers. Happy searching!
Thank you very much for your comments :anjali:
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by 333 »

In my opinion, it doesn't matter what the meditative state is called - it sounds like an advanced meditative state to me and so you are doing something right. I would say nearly noone on this site has experienced the same and so, cannot accurately tell you what you are experiencing. It sounds like a jhana between 6 and 9. Being able to experience high jhanas is incredible progress and I think you should continue without doubt; maybe you will come to experience nibbana. I think needing a definitive explanation is a mistake. :buddha1:
To Avoid All Evil,
To Cultivate Only Good,
And To Purify One's Mind
This Is The Teaching Of All The Buddhas!
-Dhammapada 183
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by akaliko »

Hi there Akhandha; I just joined because I read your posts and thought I might be able to help.

The way that you use language, the values implicit in your speech suggest that your experience is one of cessation, you are on the right path, and you will now tend to nibbana.

This might be useful:
Knowing directly the origin of nothingness to be the fetter of delight, one then sees there clearly. That's his genuine knowledge — the brahman who has lived to fulfillment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's the idea or sense of absence and presence, existence and non-existence, that is the structure of what we may regard as impermanence, and this unstable polarity is dukkha, incompleteness.

The wheel of suffering turns on this incompleteness, this conundrum - I want to experience, I don't want to experience, to be or not to be. It is a sense of rejecting experience, rejecting life, wanting it to be other.

So, speaking of the dhamma gate you have entered, one finally takes up Buddhism to follow this sense of incompleteness, this voidness, through the jhanas to cessation, to escape; we turn ourselves inside out so to speak but find no final bliss or void, no complete being or end of being, no goal or escape, not even nothing, and in this knowledge of the inapplicability of the extremes of existence and non-existence, dukkha, the sense of incompleteness, suffering, cannot persist, because we have realised there is no goal, no escape. All that dies then is the path, the seeking of either perfection or escape, life or death.

We now know that to speak of the existence or non-existence of being, self, life, is just speech: of unfolding life as it is lived, absence doesn't apply, presence doesn't apply, both absence and presence doesn't apply, neither absence nor presence doesn't apply. The Tathagata is deep, boundless like the sea.

Experience is not a physical thing with physical dimensions, there's no up or down here, no long and short, coarse and fine, fair and foul, light and dark, sun and moon; water, earth, fire and wind have no footing here, nor can experience be born or die; it comes from no past, it goes to no future, nor does it persist; life is unborn, uncreated, beyond cause and conjecture. None of the descriptors we use in Buddhism to speak of experience, such as consciousness, kandhas and so on, can apply to experience; they apply to our illusions about experience. Buddhism is a conceit to end conceit. We can't even point to experience as an object, label suchness experience, or life (or suchness). But of course we can speak, as skillfully as we may.

The significance of Nirodha Sammapatti, the journey to the edge of the map of perception, tipping over what appears to be an edge, then back to the start, is that it shows us that there is no foundation, no destination, no absolute, not even the absence of an absolute, no permanence of bliss or void of death. That there is no polarity of life and death, or in other words, because here we are, there is only life, no death. And that understanding is what the Buddha called deathless, beyond bliss.

I think you're doing fine, anyway. :namaste: I hope this was helpful; I'm still learning myself, but I recognise your experience and the way you seem to regard that experience, the questions it has led you to form, so this is my response for what it is worth.
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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Post by ubeysekaramapa »

RE;Akhanda's question which I have copied (Pl see below)

[quote]While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no
All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?[quote]


First of all you must go to a teacher who has experience in meditation.

It appears that: you are either hallucinating or unable to know your stage; because if you are in NIRODHA you can know that you are in NIRODHA SAMAPATHTHI.

vipassana, is SATI- the order is Sila, Smadhi, Panna and thereafter, proceed on stai. samadhi, panna. Even in the seven enlightening factors (sapta Bojjanga) SATI is the first, and so is in panca bala, and panca indriya. Entire process of Vipassana is awareness.
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