Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditation

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Sati1
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Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditation

Post by Sati1 »

Hello,

Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?

Many thanks for your help,
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Kim OHara
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Kim OHara »

As soon as your head goes forwards, any saliva in your mouth runs towards the front of your mouth instead of automatically being cleared down your throat, and if you don't get rid of it by swallowing it will dribble over your bottom lip. That's basic physiology and physics, and its true whether you're dozing in front of the TV or meditating. In the interests of full disclosure, I will admit it happens to me when I get drowsy in meditation. :tongue:
The only solution, afaik, is maintaining better posture. Altering the way you sit (hips a bit higher?) may help. Maintaining a bit more body awareness during your meditation could be good, at least until better posture is as automatic as breathing.

:namaste:
Kim
santa100
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by santa100 »

try to keep the mouth closed and place your tongue on the roof of the mouth and see if it helps preventing the drooling. Keeping your back straight all the time would help preventing the head from dropping forward..
Kenshou
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Kenshou »

I definitely deal with too much saliva/annoying need to swallow as well. I seem to simply generate a lot of the stuff. So I can give you a couple suggestions.

First, which relates to head-drooping, watch your posture. Not letting your posture slump forward will better prevent saliva pooling in your mouth, and keeping upright is generally beneficial to maintaining energy and mindfulness anyway.

Try different tongue positions, or consider what you are doing with your tongue if you aren't doing anything specific. You might be doing something that makes it easier for stuff to gather and sit there in your mouth.

Finally, observing the reflex to swallow can be a perfectly good object of contemplation. The feeling of a spitty mouth causes irritance, which leads to swallowing, and then the relief from that irritance. But, if the sensation is observed impartially, the annoyance will not arise. A tiny lesson on the origination of suffering.
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Mkoll
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Mkoll »

I can relate to the saliva building up. But it can be kept at the back of the throat as long as the back, neck, and head are straight enough in my experience. The sensation is awkward but I've never found it painful. Eventually the sensation becomes less bothersome if it isn't attended to with craving. It's a good way to see how suffering and craving in works for such a mundane thing.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
SarathW
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by SarathW »

Sati1 wrote:Hello,

Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?

Many thanks for your help,
Keep your eyes slightly open and look say one meter ahead of your sitting position.
When I meditate I start keeping my eyes wide open and gradually it comes to closed position.

:o
It is more interesting when you experience Jhana with your eyes open!
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sati1
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Sati1 »

Hello,

Thank you all for the answers. It is reassuring to hear the srrong consensus about maintaining posture. I will work on that and also test maintaining the tongue towards the roof of the mouth and treating the arising of the "spit nuissance" as an object of contemplation. I actually tried that contemplation a while ago and found it interesting to notice how the urge to swallow intensifies to the extreme ("you must swallow now!") even though rationally I knew that nothing dangerous would happen if I did not swallow. With enough practice it should be possible to watch it long enough for it to arise and subside without swallowing. A good lesson in nonself, for sure!
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Kumara
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Kumara »

Sati1 wrote:Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?
Yes, I have (minus the head drooping). I wondered about it too. Then I got a better understanding when I practiced with Sayadaw U Tejaniya. It's because we were tensed (esp at the head) before that, then when we relax, salivation happens. It can happen when we sleep too.

Just go ahead and swallow. What's wrong with swallowing anyway? I don't see anything in the Buddha's teaching saying one is not to swallow saliva. It's good to notice the impulse and reason for swallowing though. Then our awareness is greater.
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Sati1
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Sati1 »

Hi Kumara,

I think swallowing might be ok if it's done with total mindfulness. In the first jhana this is still ok, but I wonder whether one could also swallow in the higher jhanas.
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Kumara
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Kumara »

Sati1 wrote:I think swallowing might be ok if it's done with total mindfulness. In the first jhana this is still ok, but I wonder whether one could also swallow in the higher jhanas.
By then, the over-salivation wouldn't be happening.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Sati1 wrote:Hello,

Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?

Many thanks for your help,
You're falling asleep.
Wear one of these - I guarantee it will stop happening.

And no, I am not joking.
A Zen Monk leading regular meditation practice in a Temple I once attended, recommended it as a viable aid to promote Mindful practice.

No kidding intended at all.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Kumara
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Kumara »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:You're falling asleep.
Ahh... That explains it.

I wondered why I didn't think of it. Then I realise I haven't had that kind of sleepiness during sitting for a long time. I also don't notice this among my students. I believe it's mainly because they don't close the eyes while still trying to be aware of themselves. (Notice that the Suttas say sit upright, but not close the eyes?)
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Wear one of these - I guarantee it will stop happening.
Yikes!

Opening the eyes is safer and free.
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by daverupa »

Kumara wrote:(Notice that the Suttas say sit upright, but not close the eyes?)
Maybe, using the large third robe as a mosquito/bug screen, they had open eyes but were mostly staring gently, perhaps with half-lidded eyes, at a muted yellow field of vision. Sort of like sitting awake in a tent.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Sati1
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Sati1 »

Dear TheNoBSBuddhist,

I am sure that I am not falling asleep, as I can clearly review the five hindrances and detect no sloth and torpor whatsoever. My awareness is bright and I remain well-focused on the breath throughout. think it's more a state of extreme relaxation of the muscles than any dozzing-off or falling asleep.

Metta,
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Kumara
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Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Post by Kumara »

daverupa wrote:
Kumara wrote:(Notice that the Suttas say sit upright, but not close the eyes?)
Maybe, using the large third robe as a mosquito/bug screen, they had open eyes but were mostly staring gently, perhaps with half-lidded eyes, at a muted yellow field of vision. Sort of like sitting awake in a tent.
Don't know if any monk who does that. It'll be pretty warm in a tropical climate. Besides, you may have come across suttas that mentions the sanghati being folded and laid on the ground to be sat on.

Besides, if shutting or muting the eyes is the way to go, how is one to understand the eye, the (visual) form, the eye-consciousness, the eye-contact, the fetters connected with the eye, the gratification, the danger, the escape, etc.? Is the common idea of meditation aligned with what the Buddha taught?

"Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering." (SN35.111)
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