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Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Zom
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Zom » Tue May 06, 2014 3:10 pm


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Kumara
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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Kumara » Wed May 07, 2014 2:19 am

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sylvester » Wed May 07, 2014 3:26 am


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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Kumara » Wed May 07, 2014 8:34 am

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sylvester » Wed May 07, 2014 8:43 am

Of course the thorns are perceptible. That means that sound, when perceived in the First Jhana, makes it a thorn. Just as the speech formation, when perceived in the Second Jhana makes it a thorn to the Second Jhana.

I think what you are glossing over is the fact that the thorns are deemed as such because they are incompatible with each of the states they pop up in. How else do you reconcile the standard definition of the Second Jhana with the presence of its thorn? It's not their perceptibility per se that makes them thorns, but the fact that they intrude into a state which they have no business being in, under the standard definition of the attainments. By your logic, rapture should be a thorn in the Second Jhana, because rapture is clearly perceptible there.

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Kumara » Thu May 08, 2014 4:41 am

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 08, 2014 5:35 am

Last edited by Sylvester on Thu May 08, 2014 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 08, 2014 5:40 am


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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 08, 2014 10:41 am


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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 08, 2014 12:14 pm

I'm taking a dig at those who insist that they are sutta-jhana proponents, when the reality is that the Pali does not quite support them on several counts. I've given enough examples in the past of those who push for these untenable readings, when the underlying Pali grammar contradicts them, eg the confusion of the present tense's function, or not seeing the temporal disjunction expressed by the locative absolute formed with a kiriya past participle, or spreading out periphrastic constructions beyond one sentence to imply dhammavicaya in jhana.

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby daverupa » Thu May 08, 2014 2:00 pm


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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 08, 2014 2:16 pm

I think it's concievable that this could been seen like the thorns on a rose. They're still there, but you learn not to grasp onto them. With some practice (as in cutting a lot of rose stems for a floral shop), you learn how not to touch them (which is contact, or phassa).

For example, sounds are disruptive for first jhana, so they're not grasped after.

Intentional thoughts are disruptive for second jhana, so they're not grasped after.

Etc.

:anjali:

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sylvester » Fri May 09, 2014 5:23 am

Last edited by Sylvester on Sun May 11, 2014 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 09, 2014 6:11 am

Sylvester, You are the Man.

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 09, 2014 6:41 am

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby waterchan » Fri May 09, 2014 6:46 am

I second the notion that Sylvester should write a book. I would be quick to buy it.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Kumara » Fri May 09, 2014 9:09 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Kumara » Fri May 09, 2014 9:13 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Zom » Fri May 09, 2014 10:27 am

Last edited by Zom on Fri May 09, 2014 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

Postby Sekha » Fri May 09, 2014 10:28 am

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