Jhana and realisation...

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.
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Beautiful Breath
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Jhana and realisation...

Postby Beautiful Breath » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:36 pm

Hi,

Simple question...how can Jhana lead to Liberation?

Thanks...

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polarbuddha101
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby polarbuddha101 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:40 pm

1) It provides a wholesome pleasure that helps one to abandon sensual desires which is necessary to do in order to become an arahant:

"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


2) Jhana provides an amazing experience, but even it is impermanent, so it brings home the point that all conditioned things are not worth clinging to

"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

[Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


3) In 4th jhana it appears that getting rid of the asavas is easier to do than in lower states of consciousness. Plus if you manage to recollect past lives that would likely give a huge boost to your disenchantment:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

alan...
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby alan... » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:17 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:1) It provides a wholesome pleasure that helps one to abandon sensual desires which is necessary to do in order to become an arahant:

"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


2) Jhana provides an amazing experience, but even it is impermanent, so it brings home the point that all conditioned things are not worth clinging to

"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

[Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


3) In 4th jhana it appears that getting rid of the asavas is easier to do than in lower states of consciousness. Plus if you manage to recollect past lives that would likely give a huge boost to your disenchantment:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:goodpost:

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manas
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby manas » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:50 pm

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


What/i/take/from/the/above/simile/of/the/archer
is/that/just/as/the/archer/trains
to/be/able/to/
shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses
so/too/with/jhana
our/discernment/can/become/powerful/and/also/agile/enough
to/be/able/to/penetrate/to/(&/thus/see)
the/impermanent/stressful/selfless/characteristics
of/the/clinging.khandhas
just/like/the/arrows/penetrate/the/straw/man/or/clay
even/from/a/distance,/quickly,/and/deeply

imo/it/could/mean/that
jhana/makes/the/mind
powerful/yet/agile

ordinarily/our/minds/are/too/distracted
by/diverse/sensory/inputs
attention/dissipated
and/not/as/strong

jhana/changes/that

thats/my/current/take/on/it
metta :anjali:

Samma
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby Samma » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:11 am

Cat got your spacebar? :tongue:


Check out Upanisa Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.


It seems pretty easy to say rapture (piti), serenity (passaddhi), pleasure (sukkha), concentration (samadhi)...correspond to jhana 1, 2, 3, 4. And if not, well you are pretty close to it, and have some good qualities cultivated.

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manas
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby manas » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:20 am

Samma wrote:Cat got your spacebar? :tongue:


It/was/tea,/actually/ :coffee:

will/be/able/to/fix/on/tuesday
till/then/sorry/bout/the/layout
:anjali:

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Nyorai
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby Nyorai » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:57 am

:hello: Because “Pain is certain, suffering is optional.” , and “Nothing can harm you as much as your own thoughts unguarded.” , and “You only lose what you cling to.” and “Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.” as “In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.” and “There is no path to happiness: happiness is the path.” :clap:
ImageTo become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path. He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self.Image

mogg
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Re: Jhana and realisation...

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:40 am

Beautiful Breath wrote:Hi,

Simple question...how can Jhana lead to Liberation?

Thanks...

Practice and see for yourself! :)


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