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would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:22 am
by alan...
is this possible? assuming no other knowledge of meditation could one read every sutta on jhana and perhaps on meditation in general and end up with the know how to enter jhana?

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:24 am
by Polar Bear
I think if you read the anapanasati sutta and a bunch of suttas on jhana then all you need to do after that is be virtuous and go find a secluded place to meditate and eventually you'll enter into jhana.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:37 am
by LonesomeYogurt
alan... wrote:is this possible? assuming no other knowledge of meditation could one read every sutta on jhana and perhaps on meditation in general and end up with the know how to enter jhana?
Yes, because all it takes is anapanasati. Just sit and watch your breath with mindfulness, secluded from sensual indulgence. That's all that it takes.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:43 am
by nibbuti
alan... wrote:is this possible? assuming no other knowledge of meditation could one read every sutta on jhana and perhaps on meditation in general and end up with the know how to enter jhana?
Hi Alan. The know how to enter jhana is overcoming the five hindrances. Overcoming the five hindrances by looking at suttas and applying it is possible.

Good luck.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:56 am
by alan...
thanks all. that's what i was thinking. glad everyone agrees.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:36 am
by marc108
i think its possible, especially to someone gifted. Bhante G learned to meditate from the Suttas.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:03 pm
by Goob
Like most of the suttas I feel that it is a collection of a number of important key points which is used mostly for memorization and that it takes a community of experienced practitioners to elaborate upon on it in order for it to be understood properly. Kinda like a rough sketch of a road map which makes sense once someone learned who has been through the terrain can explain the intricacies and fill in the details.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:42 pm
by alan...
richard_rca wrote:Like most of the suttas I feel that it is a collection of a number of important key points which is used mostly for memorization and that it takes a community of experienced practitioners to elaborate upon on it in order for it to be understood properly. Kinda like a rough sketch of a road map which makes sense once someone learned who has been through the terrain can explain the intricacies and fill in the details.
i kind of agree but on common topics such as jhana there are so many rough sketches that one can make a fairly detailed map if they put them all together. now something like kasina practice would take others to make a map of any kind since it is mentioned and discussed only a very small amount but i think jhana can be learned at least to a small degree, such as learning anapanasati and then entering the first jhana, i don't see why this would be so far off.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:42 pm
by Jerrod Lopes
In my experience, you don't even have to have ever heard of Buddhism or meditation to eventually enter into jhana. Suttas and doctrines are not required whatsoever. Then of course one wouldn't know to call it jhana, but why care to put a name to it anyway? I wish I had never been told about jhanas. :)

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 pm
by Goob
i kind of agree but on common topics such as jhana there are so many rough sketches that one can make a fairly detailed map if they put them all together. now something like kasina practice would take others to make a map of any kind since it is mentioned and discussed only a very small amount but i think jhana can be learned at least to a small degree, such as learning anapanasati and then entering the first jhana, i don't see why this would be so far off.
I don't really think the suttas are explicit enough on the topic of jhana so that a clear step-by-step instruction emerges. What they offer, in my humble opinion, are rough key points, factors to be cultivated and similes. I'm sure that when we have learned to master these states and go back to read the suttas the descriptions will stand out as being self-evident. But in order to unpack the dense information in the suttas themselves I think we need collective experience and people who have been devoting their lives to practice and passing knowledge down through generations.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 pm
by Assaji
Hi Alan,
alan... wrote:is this possible? assuming no other knowledge of meditation could one read every sutta on jhana and perhaps on meditation in
general and end up with the know how to enter jhana?
This is possible, but it may take years even for a highly gifted person.

As Leigh Brasington writes, personal instructions made his progress much easier and faster.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:33 am
by Jerrod Lopes
Dmytro wrote:Hi Alan,
alan... wrote:is this possible? assuming no other knowledge of meditation could one read every sutta on jhana and perhaps on meditation in
general and end up with the know how to enter jhana?
This is possible, but it may take years even for a highly gifted person.

As Leigh Brasington writes, personal instructions made his progress much easier and faster.
Respectfully,

I have to refute this for somone who is asking so as he won't be confused. Respectfully I say I don't know what you mean by "gifted person", you may well be right. However, I find that one doesn't even really need knowledge of Buddhism in this life to go into the jhana states. Anyone can do it. After much reflection I come to the same conclusion time and time again. It is much easier to get into jhana states when one isn't aware of their existence. It follows then in this line of understanding that people having defilements such as they do, study of the jhanas may actually make getting to the jahna states more difficult. My advice to people regarding jhanas has always been to forget about them. You'll know what you need to know about jhanas when the time comes. I am sorry to be contradictory. :namaste:

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:35 am
by Goob
Jerrod Lopes wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Hi Alan,
alan... wrote:is this possible? assuming no other knowledge of meditation could one read every sutta on jhana and perhaps on meditation in
general and end up with the know how to enter jhana?
This is possible, but it may take years even for a highly gifted person.

As Leigh Brasington writes, personal instructions made his progress much easier and faster.
Respectfully,

I have to refute this for somone who is asking so as he won't be confused. Respectfully I say I don't know what you mean by "gifted person", you may well be right. However, I find that one doesn't even really need knowledge of Buddhism in this life to go into the jhana states. Anyone can do it. After much reflection I come to the same conclusion time and time again. It is much easier to get into jhana states when one isn't aware of their existence. It follows then in this line of understanding that people having defilements such as they do, study of the jhanas may actually make getting to the jahna states more difficult. My advice to people regarding jhanas has always been to forget about them. You'll know what you need to know about jhanas when the time comes. I am sorry to be contradictory. :namaste:
Also respectfully,

What experiences do you have that would lead you to this conclusion? I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm interested in who you've known that has never received instructions in meditation and yet has been able to enter jhana-equivalent states (the young Buddha doesn't count :tongue:).

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:59 pm
by Jerrod Lopes
Richard,

Suffice it to say that I know someone. I don't think it necessary for anyone to know who exactly in name. With respect and a warm tone I say it is just going to be a matter of that you take me at my word or you don't. As a 5 Preceptor, I do my best never to lie, among other things, if that is any reassurance to you. I am sorry if this isn't satisfactory. Be well. :)

PS When I said in the previous post I made that "It is much easier to get into jhana states when one isn't aware of their existence" the word their was meant to convey jhanas. So I am saying that it is easier to enter and dwell in the jhanas without knowledge of the existence of jhanas or any such state to begin with. The desire for the bliss components or to say one has experienced this or that are a few conditions that may very well preclude one from entering these states to begin with. I hope that is more clear. Sorry for any confusion.

Re: would learning jhana solely from sutta be possible?

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:08 pm
by Goob
Jerrod Lopes wrote:Richard,

Suffice it to say that I know someone. I don't think it necessary for anyone to know who exactly in name. With respect and a warm tone I say it is just going to be a matter of that you take me at my word or you don't. As a 5 Preceptor, I do my best never to lie, among other things, if that is any reassurance to you. I am sorry if this isn't satisfactory. Be well. :)

PS When I said in the previous post I made that "It is much easier to get into jhana states when one isn't aware of their existence" the word their was meant to convey jhanas. So I am saying that it is easier to enter and dwell in the jhanas without knowledge of the existence of jhanas or any such state to begin with. The desire for the bliss components or to say one has experienced this or that are a few conditions that may very well preclude one from entering these states to begin with. I hope that is more clear. Sorry for any confusion.
Jerrod,

I don't question your sincerity at all, and I wasn't after a name. I was just simply interested in what kind of person this might be who is able to enter extra-ordinary states without instructions or knowledge of them.

I'd say it's one thing to not know the details of higher levels of samadhi and another to know nothing about the basic practice and benefits of meditations at all. I'm assuming maybe your friend belongs in the former category, but then there'd be at least a knowledge of the potential benefits that cultivation might bring, right?