masturbation what's wrong?

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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:02 am

Well, I think in that case you're talking about sampajanna.

From the Mahasatipatthana Sutta:
Again, a monk, when going foward or back, is clearly aware of what he is doing, in looking forward or back he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in bending and stretching he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in carrying his inner and outer robe and his bowl he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in eating, drinking, chewing and savouring he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in passing excrement or urine he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep and waking up, in speaking or staying silent, he is clearly aware of what he is doing. So he abides contemplating the body as body internally, externally, both internally and externally ... And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body.
I don't see how that would ever lead to ejaculation.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Ben » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:08 am

Hi Tilt
tiltbillings wrote:Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?

Its an interesting idea. When i am beset by the hindrance of restlessness, I am aware that I am assuaged by the sleepy-bye-byes yet it keeps me from keeping my attention focused on the object of awareness. It requires herculean effort. And at the moment one's attention moves from the object of mindful attention to realising one is falling asleep while cross-legged, what is really going on? Is it really sati? I might be wrong but I don't think it is. Pardon my lack of references - its from what I think is going on based on my own experience.
Kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby BlackBird » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:A hindrance, when we are truly mindful of it, is it a hindrance? Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?


Reflecting upon it, yes.
But how much reflection can you do at the time?

Kilesas tend to take control of us, much in the same way that a pirate takes over a ship.

If we were really bent on using the kilesas as an object for vipassana, then we'd only need to have engaged in them once. We wouldn't need these constant 'refresher' courses.

I am not in control of my passions, they are in control of me.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:12 am

Ben wrote:And at the moment one's attention moves from the object of mindful attention to realising one is falling asleep while cross-legged, what is really going on? Is it really sati? I might be wrong but I don't think it is.
Although by the same token I think it's very informative to sit with this situation, to just sit and be there with the realization that in that moment one seems helpless.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:28 am

Ben wrote:Hi Tilt
tiltbillings wrote:Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?

Its an interesting idea. When i am beset by the hindrance of restlessness, I am aware that I am assuaged by the sleepy-bye-byes yet it keeps me from keeping my attention focused on the object of awareness. It requires herculean effort. And at the moment one's attention moves from the object of mindful attention to realising one is falling asleep while cross-legged, what is really going on? Is it really sati? I might be wrong but I don't think it is. Pardon my lack of references - its from what I think is going on based on my own experience.
Kind regards

Ben


You might want to try a 3 month retreat. Mindfulness, attention, can be of one's feeling of lust for the pretty girl two cushions over and one down who just sneezed, bringing thoughts of her to mind. One can sit quietly with a great deal of turmoil. To use figurative speech, it is possible to step back, to put some space around what is going on, which is a way of speaking of mindfulness, attention. And here I am talking about mindfulness accompanied by a pretty steady factor of concentration. Anything that comes into awarenress has the potential of being a basis for insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:38 am

BlackBird wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A hindrance, when we are truly mindful of it, is it a hindrance? Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?


Reflecting upon it, yes.
But how much reflection can you do at the time?


At what time? And it not a matter of reflection; it is a matter of paying attention to what is actually happening as it happens: "In the seen, just the seen ...."

Kilesas tend to take control of us, much in the same way that a pirate takes over a ship.


Of course, and that is my point. They don't have to.

If we were really bent on using the kilesas as an object for vipassana, then we'd only need to have engaged in them once. We wouldn't need these constant 'refresher' courses.


Doesn't follow. Until we are awakened, we are going to have to deal with these things, constantly. Like any object of awareness, they are anicca, dukkha, anatta; being thus, they can be an occasion for insight. And I am not saying that one when one feels like wacking-off, one just wacks off. The wanting can be an object of awareness. (But if one does, I do not see a reason to beat oneself up with guilt and shame.)

I am not in control of my passions, they are in control of me.
[/quote][/quote]

And how do you gain control? By cultivating mindfulness. Seeing the nature of the passions over and over and over....
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:41 am

Jechbi wrote:Well, I think in that case you're talking about sampajanna.

From the Mahasatipatthana Sutta:
Again, a monk, when going foward or back, is clearly aware of what he is doing, in looking forward or back he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in bending and stretching he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in carrying his inner and outer robe and his bowl he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in eating, drinking, chewing and savouring he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in passing excrement or urine he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep and waking up, in speaking or staying silent, he is clearly aware of what he is doing. So he abides contemplating the body as body internally, externally, both internally and externally ... And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body.
I don't see how that would ever lead to ejaculation.


An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Ben » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:46 am

A three-month retreat?
I'm currently trying to negotiate a 30-day retreat without trashing my marriage!
I'm aware that during meditation, one can bring ones attention to any phenomena that arises. My own experience is that cittanupassana and dhammanupassana is nigh-on-impossible for me outside of the retreat setting. In day-to-day lay life, there's just so much going on and if one's samadhi is not good, one may conflate subtle relishing and aversion with wise attention.
As for the pretty girl sitting on the cushion....
I tend to spend the vast majority of my time in a dark tiny little broom-closet like cell and the times i emerge from the cell, I keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground a metre or two in front of me!
Kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby christopher::: » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Ben wrote:As for the pretty girl sitting on the cushion....
I tend to spend the vast majority of my time in a dark tiny little broom-closet like cell and the times i emerge from the cell, I keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground a metre or two in front of me!


I need to adopt that approach in my work environment, which is basically like working in the midst of super models... arrgh... thank brahma for summer vacations...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:01 pm

christopher::: wrote:
Ben wrote:As for the pretty girl sitting on the cushion....
I tend to spend the vast majority of my time in a dark tiny little broom-closet like cell and the times i emerge from the cell, I keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground a metre or two in front of me!


I need to adopt that approach in my work environment, which is basically like working in the midst of super models... arrgh... thank brahma for summer vacations...


Then the Venerable Ananda said to the Blessed One: "How, Lord, should we conduct ourselves towards women?"

"Do not see them, Ananda."

"But, Lord, if we do see them?"

"Do not speak, Ananda."

"But, Lord, if they should speak to us?"

"Then, Ananda, you should establish mindfulness."
- DN 16
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby nathan » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:41 pm

I'd just like to thank everyone involved for this thread. I was moved to tears on several occasions.
rotfl
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

Okay, derail time, if you'll indulge me. Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:38 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

Okay, derail time, if you'll indulge me. Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?


sampajanna

Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Ben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:54 am

Hi Jechbi
Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

Okay, derail time, if you'll indulge me. Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?


My teacher defines sampajanno with specific reference to the quality of awareness to the changing nature of an object: (clear comprehension of the anicca characteristic). How does one, develop sampajanno while in the midst of such an intensely pleasurable and lustful experience? As I may have said earlier on this thread, or perhaps somewhere else, its all to easy - in fact natural - to confuse subtle craving and aversion with wise attention.
Metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:01 am

Ben wrote:How does one, develop sampajanno while in the midst of such an intensely pleasurable and lustful experience?
Indeed. So, having been developed, is it even conceivable, as Tilt appears to suggest? Would such an activity occur?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Ben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:11 am

Hi Jechbi
Perhaps it is possible - technically speaking.
From my own experience, I don't think I've ever been able to develop the requisite equanimity and sampajanno without getting completely derailed and enmeshed in the sankhara-producing event. But I am no yogi by any stretch of the imagination!
From a practical perspective, perhaps there is a natural parting of the mind from acquiring such intensely sankhara-laden experiences the further one walks down the path.
Metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby cooran » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:12 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?


Gotcha! :tongue:
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:15 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?


Can you be fully attentive while eating something pleasurable?

So, you have a guy that has chroniic prostatosis; is not married, and the doctors says to him, you need to "drain" your prostate several times a week to keep down the congestation and thusly the pain and to keep it healthy. So, he is not necessarily masturbating because of lust or because he is bored or even to pleasure himself because he wants to. Given this motivation, would it possible to for one to wack-off mindfully, just as it is possible to eat mindfully as a Dhamma practice?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:So, you have a guy that has chroniic prostatosis; is not married, and the doctoirs says to him, you need to "drain" your prostate several times a week to keep down he congestation and thusly the pain. So, he is not masturbating because of lust or because he is bored or even to pleasure himself because he wants to. Given this motivation, would it possible to for one to wack-off mindfully, just as it is possible to eat mindfully?

Guess it depends on whether he uses "visual aids."

But seriously, how does that example relate to the notion that hinderances don't always hinder?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.


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