Incest - Yay or Nay?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Ceisiwr
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Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I recently read the article below which made me think about sexual ethics. I have been discussing this with my Atheist and Chrsitian friends, so I thought I would get a Buddhist perspective.

Are incestious relationships against the precepts, or are they allowed if they are based upon mutual consent between adults?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Ben
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ben »

I think you'll find is that outside the precepts, the law of the land is the next governing principle.
Where I live, sexual activity between consenting adults is permissible. Having said that, sexual relations between close family members, while not illegal, are generally not socially acceptable.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ben wrote:I think you'll find is that outside the precepts, the law of the land is the next governing principle.
Where I live, sexual activity between consenting adults is permissible. Having said that, sexual relations between close family members, while not illegal, are generally not socially acceptable.
Kind regards,
Ben


I agree that it's currently socially unacceptable, however 50 years ago homosexuality was.

Perhaps another question could be is incest bad kamma? I don't see kamma as being a moral system, but a lot of people here do. Within that framework I don't understand how it's "bad" if it's consensual.

Personally I'm liberal in such matters, so I'm all for legalising incest and having incestious marriages, as well as legalising polygamy (in the west) and polyandry.

Do you have any arguments against it, apart from personal distaste?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ben
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ben »

clw_uk wrote:
Ben wrote:I think you'll find is that outside the precepts, the law of the land is the next governing principle.
Where I live, sexual activity between consenting adults is permissible. Having said that, sexual relations between close family members, while not illegal, are generally not socially acceptable.
Kind regards,
Ben


I agree that it's currently socially unacceptable, however 50 years ago homosexuality was.

Perhaps another question could be is incest bad kamma? I don't see kamma as being a moral system, but a lot of people here do. Within that framework I don't understand how it's "bad" if it's consensual.

Personally I'm liberal in such matters, so I'm all for legalising incest and having incestious marriages, as well as legalising polygamy (in the west) and polyandry.

Do you have any arguments against it, apart from personal distaste?
Personally, I am neither for nor against. And I think whether a union is healthy/wholesome is going to depend on the dynamics of each individual relationship.
From a psychological point of view where there could be cause for concern is whether the relationship is truly consential and whether or not influence was brought to bear on one party. Such as a union between parent and child where there is a natural imbalance of power.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Kim OHara
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Kim OHara »

There are very good genetic arguments against incestuous relationships which may produce children, and I believe that the nearly-universal prohibition of incest is due to a (vague, usually) awareness of this. Inbreeding favours recessive genes, many of which are maladaptive at best. Wikipedia is a good starting point for further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding.
Aside from this risk, which in these days of good contraception is not as big as it used to be but is still significant, there is a near-certainty of severe power imbalance, i.e. abuse, in a parent-child relationship unless the child is well into adulthood.
Neither of those points is particularly Buddhist, of course. I don't think you will find anything in the suttas which specifically addresses incest, so you have to fall back on the precepts ...

:namaste:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ben wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Ben wrote:I think you'll find is that outside the precepts, the law of the land is the next governing principle.
Where I live, sexual activity between consenting adults is permissible. Having said that, sexual relations between close family members, while not illegal, are generally not socially acceptable.
Kind regards,
Ben


I agree that it's currently socially unacceptable, however 50 years ago homosexuality was.

Perhaps another question could be is incest bad kamma? I don't see kamma as being a moral system, but a lot of people here do. Within that framework I don't understand how it's "bad" if it's consensual.

Personally I'm liberal in such matters, so I'm all for legalising incest and having incestious marriages, as well as legalising polygamy (in the west) and polyandry.

Do you have any arguments against it, apart from personal distaste?
Personally, I am neither for nor against. And I think whether a union is healthy/wholesome is going to depend on the dynamics of each individual relationship.
From a psychological point of view where there could be cause for concern is whether the relationship is truly consential and whether or not influence was brought to bear on one party. Such as a union between parent and child where there is a natural imbalance of power.
Kind regards,
Ben

:goodpost:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Kim OHara
There are very good genetic arguments against incestuous relationships which may produce children, and I believe that the nearly-universal prohibition of incest is due to a (vague, usually) awareness of this. Inbreeding favours recessive genes, many of which are maladaptive at best. Wikipedia is a good starting point for further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding.
Well if we prevented a birth because of potential genetic defects it should also be applied to embryos that have Down syndrome, or huntington's. Why would it be ok to let a baby be born with genetic defects through "normal" relations, yet restrict their birth to incestious parents? I think we would be moving towards eugenics if we adopted said position.
Aside from this risk, which in these days of good contraception is not as big as it used to be but is still significant, there is a near-certainty of severe power imbalance, i.e. abuse, in a parent-child relationship unless the child is well into adulthood.
I agree that there could be a potential for abuse. My thinking was in terms of a brother and a brother who have been separated at birth and end up together.
Neither of those points is particularly Buddhist, of course. I don't think you will find anything in the suttas which specifically addresses incest, so you have to fall back on the precepts ...

:namaste:
Kim
I don't find anything against it in the suttas either, per se.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

I have to admit that I'm averse to the idea. I found the following which seems to support the idea that it was proscribed by the Lord Buddha:
During the Buddha's life there was an incident where a nun became infatuated with her son who was a monk and had sex with him, an offence entailing expulsion from the Saïgha (Vin.III,35). When this was brought to the Buddha's notice he said:`Does not this foolish man know that a mother shall not lust after her son or a son after his mother?' (A.III,67-8). Perhaps referring to this incident the Buddha also said: `Shame and fear of blame, are the two states that protect the world. If they did not protect the world it would not be clear who was one's mother or mother's sister, one's uncle's wife and the world would fall into confusion. The promiscuity seen amongst goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, dogs and jackals would prevail'(A.I,51). - See more at: http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php? ... Dw2Bi.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
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Aloka
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Aloka »

Hi Craig :hello:

in general, I don't pay much attention to the "news" churned out by one of the most notoriously scandal-mongering Tory tabloids in the UK!

I think incestuous relationships are probably more common in secret than we imagine. I've heard a couple of (non-internet) stories from people myself.

What is my own opinion of incest? I don't really have a strong opinion because I think it depends on the circumstances. However, if its persuaded or forced upon a minor by an older relative then obviously its rape as well.

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Aloka »

According to Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments on the third precept:
The most serious violations are incest and the rape of an arahant (or arahatess). The underlying root is always greed accompanied by delusion.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el282.html

:anjali:
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Ben
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Ben »

Celibacy seems more and more attractive (to me).
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Aloka
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:
...as well as legalising polygamy (in the west) and polyandry.
Lol, I wonder if you lived in Tibet in a past life ?


;)
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
dagon
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by dagon »

I think the following quote is consistent with most of the responses of the thread. As it comes from what I consider to be part of the core teaching I believe that this is a teaching that needs to be considered.
“Whatever action you desire to do with the body, Rāhula, of that particular bodily
action you should reflect: ‘Now, this action that I desire to do with the body—would
this, my bodily action, be conducive to my own harm, or to the harm of others, or to
that of both (myself and others)?—Then, unskilful is this bodily action, entailing
suffering and productive of pain.
“If, Rāhula, when reflecting you should realize: ‘Now, this bodily action of mine,
that I am desirous of doing, would be conducive to my own harm, or to the harm of
others, or to that of both (myself and others),—hence, unskilful is this bodily action,—
entailing suffering and productive of pain’—such an action with the body, Rāhula, you
must on no account perform.
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh033.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So when it speaks of others who should be considered -I think it has to include potential children. Then we might also consider parents and others in the family given the duties and responsibilities that are outlined in the teachings,

In one other the cases in the UK rag it involved breaking up a marriage - lusting after another's spouse it against the 3 rd precept - even or maybe especial if it is the mother of one of the partners.

I think one of the reasons why I find "incest rules" very useful in my life is dealing with young women my daughters ages. Having a relationship model that can be easily employed to engage in a wholesome relationship is advantageous for me and the younger person. I have a lot of adopted daughter and am privileged that they will often talk to me when they can talk to their biological fathers.

If I was to contrast your hypothetical case of two brothers with some of the violence and abuse that I have seen in "sanctioned" relationships I know which gives me far more concern

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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by SarathW »

Khalil Bodhi wrote:I have to admit that I'm averse to the idea. I found the following which seems to support the idea that it was proscribed by the Lord Buddha:
During the Buddha's life there was an incident where a nun became infatuated with her son who was a monk and had sex with him, an offence entailing expulsion from the Saïgha (Vin.III,35). When this was brought to the Buddha's notice he said:`Does not this foolish man know that a mother shall not lust after her son or a son after his mother?' (A.III,67-8). Perhaps referring to this incident the Buddha also said: `Shame and fear of blame, are the two states that protect the world. If they did not protect the world it would not be clear who was one's mother or mother's sister, one's uncle's wife and the world would fall into confusion. The promiscuity seen amongst goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, dogs and jackals would prevail'(A.I,51). - See more at: http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php? ... Dw2Bi.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:goodpost:
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santa100
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Re: Incest - Yay or Nay?

Post by santa100 »

..
Last edited by santa100 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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