Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

'Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.'

BuddhaSoup wrote:Isn't it fundamental to practice that we work to release ourselves from the sense fetters that tie us to samsara? Once released, we develop insight and cultivate this path toward Nibbana. So, the sense fetters, including lust and sexual sensuality, are part and parcel of the activities of the mind that tie us to samsara.

Now, sex with a romantic partner is amazing, right? It's really great stuff. Lab experiments with rats tell us that a starved rat will rather copulate than eat. Some of us here might understand that sensibility. Maybe the rat was a college student. Our brains are programmed to copulate, and our brains release magnificent euphoric chemicals in support of the goal of copulation. However, with right mindfulness, we understand the "trick or treat" (10/31 Halloween metaphor, sorry) component to sensuality. It's a treat, but it tricks us into pursuit of more sense pleasures away from the path of purification.

A lot of discussion s can be held about the merits of romance and sexuality, but so long as we are still in the camp of the romantic, we cannot be in the camp of the renunciate or the stream enterer. The camp of the romantic distances us from the Buddha's teaching of the highest goal. Now, the Buddha clearly understood the nature of lay men and lay women, and understood that the lay practitioner could achieve high levels of release. Bu the stumbling block to release may be these attachments to the sense fetters that, while strong, wonderful and compelling, keep us off the fullest path.

So, as Bhikkhu Bodhi commented with respect to a different issue, it all comes down to our own individual predispositions and personalities. A kind and compassionate lay person may in fact be well on the path ahead of the angry, greedy monk. But I think the Buddha had it right that to the extent that we incorporate these renunciate practices into our lives, we better prepare the soil for the cultivation of release. After all, who wants to live like a rat in a cage? http://youtu.be/CN4oo-kn7r8

Dan74 wrote:Thanks, Dave, and for the most relevant part:

'Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.'

BubbaBuddhist wrote:Hey, I'm curious: Has anyone here any personal experience, success or familiarity with those states of equanimity and deep calm associated with renunciation of sense-pleasures?

I've settled for the relatively minor state of calm that arises from understanding the impermanence of conditions. You sorta have to when you reach my age. Oh yeah. Speaking of age, this whole thread can be resolved with that simple solution. If you live long enough that should eradicate your sex drive.

BB
An answer for everything

reflection wrote:Some love their sex drive, others would rather not have it and try to diminish or remove it. Is that hard to understand? Apparently so. Still I wonder why these threads always tend to turn into some discussion about why we should or shouldn't. I mean, if somebody opens a thread about how they'd like to stop eating chocolate and that they'd like to have some support for that, I'm also not jumping into that saying "Listen, I love chocolate, nothing wrong with it if you have the right kind of chocolate" or "sorry, no, you can't stop eating chocolate". In my eyes it's just not very respectful towards the one who wants to stop.

And I know people's attachment to sexuality are strong, so they feel the need to defend them. So it's nothing personal. It just annoys me that on a Buddhist board we just can't seem to have a thread just focused around trying to support one another. I mean, it's one of the only places where some can find some support - if you don't live close to a monastery or so, there is virtually nobody to talk to.

And yes, now I'm adding to the turmoil I know, I'm sorry.

Ananda was young and handsome and this caused him some trouble. One day, he begged in Sravasti and on the way back he saw a well. A peasant girl was getting water from the well. Ananda was thirsty so he asked the girl to give him some water.

The girl recognised the young bhikkhu in front of her was Ananda. Very shyly she said, "Venerable! I am a lowly peasant who is not fit to offer you anything."

When Ananda heard this, he consoled her, "Young lady! I am a bhikkhu and I am equal towards the rich and poor!"

The girl was deeply attracted by Ananda's looks and his gentle speech. She even dreamed of marrying him. In actual fact, young Ananda could not forget the young lady too! Next day, when he passed by her house, the girl smiled and acknowledged him. Ananda began to feel confused. However at the moment he remembered he was the bhikkhu who had to abide by the precepts, he though of Buddha, his power engulfed him. Ananda suddenly found wisdom, as if the Buddha had turned into a gust of wind to guide him back to the Jetavana monastery.

On the second day, Ananda calmed himself then went to the city to beg. The young girl wore a new dress and had a new hairdo. She stood on the road waiting for Ananda. When she saw him, she followed him and refused to let him go. Ananda was nervous and helpless. He returned to the monastery and told the Buddha everything. The Buddha then told him to bring the girl to him.

When the girl heard that Buddha wanted to see her, she was shocked but in order to get Ananda, she picked up courage to see the Buddha. Upon seeing her, Buddha said, " Ananda is a practising monk, to be his wife you need to leave home and be a bhikkhuni for a year, are you willing?"

"I an willing, Lord Buddha!" The girl was surprised that the Buddha had so easily made her wish come true, so she answered very quickly.

"According to my system, leaving home needs approval from parents, can you get your parents to approve of it?"

The Buddha did not make things difficult for her. His conditions were not impossible and the girl immediately went home to fetch her mother. Her mother very happily agreed to let her daughter become a bhikkuni first before marrying Ananda.

In order to be Ananda's wife, the girl very happily shaved her hair to become a bhikkuni. She listened to Buddha's preachings very enthusiastically and practised according to Buddha's guidance. Her desires and emotions calmed down after each passing day and in less than half a year, she realised that in the past her pursuits for love was a shameful behaviour.

Buddha always preached that the five forms of desires were unclean Dharma and the source of sufferings. Only when the five desires* were cleared could the mind become pure and the life peaceful.

The girl realised her obsession with Ananda was unclean and bad. She regretted and one day, she knelt in front of Buddha and tearfully repented, " Buddha! I am awake now, I will not be ignorant like I used to be. I am very grateful to you. In order to convert ignorant sentient beings like us, you have put in so much effort to think of various ways! From now on, I am going to be a bhikkuni forever, follow Buddha's footsteps to be a messenger of truth!"

Buddha's earnest teachings had finally awakened her to become a model bhikkhuni!

This girl was the well-known Matanga. In allowing a peasant girl to be a bhikkhuni, Buddha received a lot of criticism and opposition from people as the caste system was prevalent at that time. However, Buddha advocated equality of the four castes. The incidence of Matanga's attraction to Ananda's looks and the turning of misfortune into happiness had become a matter of great interest in the Buddhist community and a charming story through the ages.

But speaking for myself: in regular lay life I find it quite impossible to do, because television, snacks, music, etc. etc. are so easy to indulge in.

manas wrote:I don't think it's a healthy attitude to take, this notion of wanting to 'eradicate' sex drive. . . .

I don't think it's a healthy attitude to take, this notion of wanting to 'eradicate' sex drive. In fact, it can lead to neuroses

greenjuice wrote:

I don't think it's a healthy attitude to take, this notion of wanting to 'eradicate' sex drive. In fact, it can lead to neuroses

If doing something badly leads to something unhealthy, that doesn't means it's unhealthy to do, it just means one should do it prudently.

perkele wrote:

greenjuice wrote:

I don't think it's a healthy attitude to take, this notion of wanting to 'eradicate' sex drive. In fact, it can lead to neuroses

If doing something badly leads to something unhealthy, that doesn't means it's unhealthy to do, it just means one should do it prudently.

Spot on.