Eradicating sex drive

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

seen as completed by those engaged in it due to orgasm
Oh Dave--there is SO much more to lovemaking than that little moment at the end. So very much more. It's a foolish man who thinks that's what it's all about. I am surprised you don't know this. No wonder you hold the act of love in such little regard.

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Dan74
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dan74 »

Sex or no sex, it's about the mind.

We can be intoxicated with sex and build identity around pleasure and sex. Or we can be intoxicated with being unattached to sex and build identity around that. There is no doubt that for many of us, sex is a major driving force, hence it merits more attention.

What is more important, I think, is how do we work with all that? How do we practice, being sexual creatures full of urges and cravings?

Edit: inserted an important comma!
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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daverupa
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by daverupa »

I'm sorry to have provided a simplistic dichotomy, but I mean to emphasize that the pursuit of sensual pleasure is what makes it problematic; whatever romantic/etc. layers one also has in fact contribute to the overall sensual attraction involved in the pursuit of relationship with a significant other.

To be brief, these sorts of things (sensual pursuits generally) serve as an obstruction to meditation. That's the only point I mean to make.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dan74
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dan74 »

daverupa wrote:I'm sorry to have provided a simplistic dichotomy, but I mean to emphasize that the pursuit of sensual pleasure is what makes it problematic; whatever romantic/etc. layers one also has in fact contribute to the overall sensual attraction involved in the pursuit of relationship with a significant other.

To be brief, this serves as an obstruction to meditation. That's all.
Meditation can easily become a kind of a solipsistic navel gazing which 'a relationship with a significant other' may be a good antidote for. Not the only antidote or maybe not even the best, but wholesome relationships of all sorts are great at pulling us out of that precious mind space that abhors all disturbance and worldly tasks, a false semblance of true equanimity and provide a true testing ground for all those wonderful qualities we've been cultivating.

This is not to say that romantic relationships are necessary or even good for practice. Such blanket statements are meaningless in themselves. There is a time and place for things and a time and place to let things go.
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daverupa
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by daverupa »

"True" testing ground? That's kooky. I don't doubt there are benefits, many benefits - humans, you know, evolved for this to be healthy in myriad ways - but there are better and greater benefits that those benefits get in the way of.

:shrug:

It's a very simple point. I think we're talking past each other.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dan74
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dan74 »

We probably are talking past each other, Dave.

I said wholesome relationships of all kinds [...] provide a true testing ground for all those wonderful qualities we've been cultivating. Brahmaviharas and paramis are not tested as much while on a cushion or in one's comfort zone, as in relating to our environment and fellow beings. This was my simple point. Is that so kooky, really?

As for better and greater benefits that you allude to, yes, I agree it may be the case. The Buddha spoke of the one enamoured with all the fun and drama of the romantic entanglement, a slave to pleasure, blind to the bondage inherent therein and to greater matters. Perhaps one could also speak of one whose heart is cold and insulated by hurts and disappointments, one whose life is insipid and dry, a heart which has never known love and where love for one person cannot blossom into powerful compassion for all beings. There are right things done for wrong reasons, which inevitably yield wrong results. In any case...
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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daverupa
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by daverupa »

Dan74 wrote:Brahmaviharas and paramis are not tested while on a cushion or in one's comfort zone, but in relating to our environment and fellow beings. This was my simple point. Is that so kooky, really?
I'm not talking about brahmaviharas and paramis, so it does look kooky. That's probably why we're at opposite ends of this thing. Some things do require seclusion; I guess it feels as though people are on the defensive, and I'm just utterly puzzled. I probably shouldn't be.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dan74
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dan74 »

Brahmaviharas, of course! What else could 'all those wonderful qualites we've been practicing' mean?

And of course people are going to be on the defensive - it's what we do (well, some of us, sometimes, at least). :)

There is of course attachment, deep attachment to sensuality which is pervasive and sex is just one aspect of it.
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kmath
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by kmath »

Dan74 wrote:
And of course people are going to be on the defensive - it's what we do (well, some of us, sometimes, at least). :)
I'm not defensive. Who's defensive here? Are you talking about all of us?

:tongue:
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Mindstar
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Mindstar »

If you want to stay as a lay disciple in the future there shouldnt be a problem with indulging in romance/sex because you are aiming for low anyway. You might become a stream winner or with strong wisdom faculties a once-returner.
It is however for those of us who want to ordain in the future that we need to aim for the highest.
Beeing inspired by great monks like Maha Mogalana and Anuruddha - Master of the Divine Eye who where practicing very diligently even if it was hard reaped the fruits of their good practice in the end.

Higher than lordship over all earth,
Higher than sojourning in heavens supreme,
Higher than empire over all the worlds,
Is Fruit of Entrance to the Dhamma Stream.
—Dhammapada
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tiltbillings
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by tiltbillings »

Mindstar wrote:If you want to stay as a lay disciple in the future there shouldnt be a problem with indulging in romance/sex because you are aiming for low anyway. You might become a stream winner or with strong wisdom faculties a once-returner.
It is however for those of us who want to ordain in the future that we need to aim for the highest.
Beeing inspired by great monks like Maha Mogalana and Anuruddha - Master of the Divine Eye who where practicing very diligently even if it was hard reaped the fruits of their good practice in the end.
I wonder whatt Ven Nanda was aiming at.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by reflection »

Some love their sex drive, others would rather not have it and try to diminish or remove it. Is that hard to understand? Apparently so. Still I wonder why these threads always tend to turn into some discussion about why we should or shouldn't. I mean, if somebody opens a thread about how they'd like to stop eating chocolate and that they'd like to have some support for that, I'm also not jumping into that saying "Listen, I love chocolate, nothing wrong with it if you have the right kind of chocolate" or "sorry, no, you can't stop eating chocolate". In my eyes it's just not very respectful towards the one who wants to stop.

And I know people's attachment to sexuality are strong, so they feel the need to defend them. So it's nothing personal. It just annoys me that on a Buddhist board we just can't seem to have a thread just focused around trying to support one another. I mean, it's one of the only places where some can find some support - if you don't live close to a monastery or so, there is virtually nobody to talk to.

And yes, now I'm adding to the turmoil I know, I'm sorry. :namaste:
Last edited by reflection on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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reflection
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by reflection »

Mindstar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That will not happen.
Oh no.. please don`t disturb my enthusiasm :lol:

I would disagree however.
On a level of mind made realms (First Jhana and upwards) all beings are androgynous that is why no sexual craving exists.
Deep meditations are therefore a temporary relief of that craving.
On a bodily level it might be true for now but who knows what the future brings.. genetic modifications maybe?
It might happen, it may just take a long time. I think the thing is trying to change yourself while also not being averted toward the situation as it currently is. I think that attitude is the most healthy and with that attitude it may happen. Nobody can ever say that it will never happen for anybody.

Good luck! :anjali:
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manas
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by manas »

reflection wrote:Some love their sex drive, others would rather not have it and try to diminish or remove it. Is that hard to understand? Apparently so. Still I wonder why these threads always tend to turn into some discussion about why we should or shouldn't. I mean, if somebody opens a thread about how they'd like to stop eating chocolate and that they'd like to have some support for that, I'm also not jumping into that saying "Listen, I love chocolate, nothing wrong with it if you have the right kind of chocolate" or "sorry, no, you can't stop eating chocolate". In my eyes it's just not very respectful towards the one who wants to stop.
I think that there is a lot of support on this board in general, for how to deal with sex desire, which is of course a problem for almost all of us. I think the issue here is this idea of wanting to 'eradicate' it, as if one could just get rid of it quickly, so it can stop being a nuisance, and one can get on with the business of being in detached bliss (sorry to the OP if this is a misrepresentation, but that's the feeling I get, possibly because I used to have this attitude). As it's not going to go away all that easily, and will probably remain a pesky irritation for most of us even into our next birth, I think that it would be more skilful to focus (for now, in the immediate present) on management rather than eradication. When sex desire arises, what are you going to do with it? What strategies can you employ? etc. But this wish to eradicate it sounds to me, like a desire to avoid the tiresome reality of having to deal with it, over a long period of time, which is the reality for most folks, even monks. Just look at how many quite advanced monks even, end up disrobing and getting married...it's not so simply eradicated, it has to be managed... That's not discouragement, it's just being realistic. (imho)

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

I am, above and beyond everything, a pragmatist. I'm a realist. I know myself and my limits.

I recall several years ago when I meditated an hour a day, every day, I became weird and isolated. I had little use for other people, wanted to spend all my time meditating, found it almost impossible to take interest in all those things that interest 'normal' people. My bhikhu at the monastery in Murphreesboro said it was time to take the preliminary trainings to begin the process of ordaining.

I recall puttering around my house thinking about putting all my affairs in order. I began thinking about my son and my brother. Both adults, but neither completely functional in the world. How were they going to get by if I were a penniless monk? Next, from somewhere in the deep recess of my mind rose Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde--Song of the Earth--a thing of terrible beauty, and that almost cinched it. I always loved Mahler. But what really derailed me was this conviction I'd held since early adolescence. That there was someone out there waiting for me, as I had been waiting for them. I had been searching for this person for a long time, and found bits and pieces of her in other women: the laughing eyes here, the passion there, the mischievous humor there, the kind heart in another; someone who shared my love for music and theater in yet another, but never all together in one woman. The Romantic Quest. And I knew somewhere in the world, she was looking for me. I cannot explain the sense of certainty. I could feel her, my companion, making her way toward me. Most people settle for someone they can get along with, and they barely tolerate each other. I wasn't going to do that. I would wait.

That's what settled the matter. Being a monk isn't for everyone. I dialed my meditation back a bit. Twenty minutes a day, three times a week. I rejoined the world. And I and my companion found each other. Sometimes, Samsara is kind.

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