Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).
But it certainly calls Vimalaramsi's whole enterprise into question. As I have said, from what I have heard him say about actual practice, there are far better teachers out there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).
The factionalism seems to be built into the the OP of this topic:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 55#p134831" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to Venerable Vimalaramsi the instructions from the commentaries leave some important steps out. In this video Venerable Vimalaramsi explains how to meditate using the instructions from the suttas and he explains how to get the extra value from these missing steps.
And other topics such as:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It goes some way to explaining why some people may legitimately prefer a suttanta method of meditation over that of one based upon post-Buddha teachings. Frankly, I find it refreshing to see a monk have the courage to defend the primacy of the Buddha's teaching, against the traditional backdrop of accumulated post-Buddha perspectives.
As Tilt and others have pointed out:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p117374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
there appear to be a lot of factual errors in those videos.

:anjali:
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things. I think that's perfectly clear by now... but that's not what jhana4 wants to talk about.

How about we either talk about what jhana4 wants to talk about, or sit on our hands?
jhana4 wrote:I originally started the thread because I was intrigued by the video and was wondering how the rubber met the road with his teachings. Instead I got a lot of people posting factionalist gripes. I understand why they are offended, but I was curious about the results of that meditation, not the other stuff. You gave what I wanted, some feedback about the method from someone who used it. Thank you.
:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things.
Well, it rankles when Vimalaramsi grossly misrepresents/distorts the commentaries, the Visuddhimagga, and other teachers, and that certainly deserves a response.

As for the OP, maybe Jhana4 -- or you -- can outline what he sees as Vimalaramsi's unique method.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Well, it rankles when Vimalaramsi grossly misrepresents/distorts the commentaries, the Visuddhimagga, and other teachers, and that certainly deserves a response.
And has been made (repeatedly)...

:focus:
tiltbillings wrote:As for the OP, maybe Jhana4 -- or you -- can outline what he sees as Vimalaramsi's unique method.
That would be of relevance...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things.

:jumping:

Not much of an excuse for ignoring obvious errors.

:anjali:
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

:focus:
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by Jhana4 »

I don't know anything about the commentaries, the abhidhamma or various writers/teachers views on these works. This uninvolvement makes me feel pretty detached about anything the teacher in the original post may have said about these works. It sounds like it could be an educational debate with all of the details laid out in another thread. As I stated a few times, I started this thread to hear about experiences people have had with this teachers meditation method. I don't care about the other issues. Should I ever read the commentaries and related materials I will be able to decide what I think for myself......possibly with the aide of another thread where those issues are hashed out.

I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

Jhana4 wrote: I don't care about the other issues.
Maybe you should at least some idea of the issues involved.



I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.[/quote]So, what exactly is this method?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by Jhana4 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote: I don't care about the other issues.
Maybe you should at least some idea of the issues involved.
I might read the commentaries some day. Right now I don't have the interest, I don't have the time, I am happy with what I am getting with the suttas, I'm happy getting what I am with my practice and I have a lot of interesting works about meditation I want to read.

tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.
So, what exactly is this method?
The best answer I could give you would be to tell you to watch the video at the beginning of this thread.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

Jhana4 wrote: I might read the commentaries some day. Right now I don't have the interest, I don't have the time, I am happy with what I am getting with the suttas, I'm happy getting what I am with my practice and I have a lot of interesting works about meditation I want to read.
It is not the issue of disagreeing with the commentaries, it is lack of integrity in the way he does it and in the way he dismisses other teachers.

tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.
So, what exactly is this method?
The best answer I could give you would be to tell you to watch the video at the beginning of this thread.
I have, but I am asking you so that there can be a basis for discussion here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by thelotuseffect »

tiltbillings wrote:So, what exactly is this method?
Well what I learned was how to handle distractions from meditation. When a hindrance arises there are 6 steps to purifying mind: 1st is to recognize a hindrance has arose, 2nd is to release the hindrance by not paying attention to it, 3rd is to relax tension caused by the hindrance, 4th is to re-smile (kindle happiness in your heart), 5th is to return to your object of meditation, 6 is to repeat this process until arahantship. It sounds like a lot but it turns into a single motioned habit.
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

thelotuseffect wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, what exactly is this method?
Well what I learned was how to handle distractions from meditation. When a hindrance arises there are 6 steps to purifying mind: 1st is to recognize a hindrance has arose, 2nd is to release the hindrance by not paying attention to it, 3rd is to relax tension caused by the hindrance, 4th is to re-smile (kindle happiness in your heart), 5th is to return to your object of meditation, 6 is to repeat this process until arahantship. It sounds like a lot but it turns into a single motioned habit.
And how is this different from what other teachers teach?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
thelotuseffect
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by thelotuseffect »

:shrug: Depends on who we're talking about really.
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