Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

[starter]

Greetings!

I'm reading the following teaching again, and realized that the gaining of the "Dhamma eye" means stream entry, which is the second stage of enlightenment:

Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., suffering, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye [vision of Dhamma] arose within him, “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of ceasing.” [Ud 5.3 Kutthi Sutta The Leper]

This "whatever" and "all" includes the six sense sets, five aggregates and six elements as detailed in SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering as cited above. Interestingly, in this sutta, both volition and craving (that belong to the 4th aggregate) are listed:

"7) Volition regarding forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Volition regarding sounds … Volition regarding odours … Volition regarding tastes … Volition regarding tactile objects … Volition regarding mental phenomena
8) Craving for forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise ... Craving for sounds … Craving for odours … Craving for tastes … Craving for tactile objects … Craving for mental phenomena …"

One who has comprehended the impermanence of the "all" has also comprehended the first NT (Dhukka). One who has comprehended the impermanence of volition has also comprehended the impermanence of craving, which is the second and third NT (the arising and cessation of suffering). Although it seems that one who has comprehended the impermanence of the "all" (the first three NT) is already a stream-enterer ("One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer") without mentioning the comprehension of the fourth NT in SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering, I tend to think that such a noble disciple who has gained the "Dhamma eye" and the first fruit must have also comprehended the fourth NT, and he directly knows that has comprehended the first fourfold of the 4NT: ‘This is suffering’, ‘This is the arising of suffering’, ‘This is the cessation of suffering’, ‘This is the practice (path) leading to the cessation of suffering’. Before the leper obtained the "Dhamma eye", the Buddha
gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., suffering, origination, cessation, & path. . Logically the leper comprehended all the four and became an Awakened One.

I'd like to correct my previous thought "the obtaining of 'the Dhamma eye' would make the leper obtain the first stage of the enlightenment, not the second". It's wrong. The obtaining of 'the Dhamma eye' would make one obtain the second stage of the enlightenment, not the first.

The comprehension of the 4th NT ‘This is the practice (path) leading to the cessation of suffering’ might not mean the complete comprehension of the 8 path factors including how to practice each. Such comprehension might fall into the second fourfold of the 4NT:

"Now that to which “this is suffering” refers is to be fully known. Now that to which “this is the arising (origination) of suffering” refers (i.e. craving) is to be given up. Now that to which “this is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering” refers (i.e. Emancipation) is to be experienced. Now that to which “this is the noble truth of the practice leading to the end of suffering” refers (i.e. the practice (path) itself) is to be developed". [from http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/E ... ses-01.htm (with my notes and minor change)]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Metta to all!

[cooran]

Hello all,

This previous thread may be of interest:

The arising of the Dhamma Eye
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10215

With metta,
Chris

[culaavuso]

I'm reading the following teaching again, and realized that the gaining of the "Dhamma eye" means stream entry, which is the second stage of enlightenment:

The "Dhamma eye" refers to the first stage, Sotāpanna (stream entry). SN 13.1 directly says that obtaining the "Dhamma eye" is a state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes. AN 3.86 says that having at most seven lifetimes remaining is the result of breaking the first three fetters. MN 118 explains that while once returners, the second stage of enlightenment, have only broken through the first three fetters they have sufficiently weakened the next two fetters such that they will return to a human birth at most once more.

SN 13.1

In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.

AN 3.86

With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.

MN 118

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.

Additionally, a stream entrant discerns all four noble truths.

SN 48.53

And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner'? There is the case where a monk is a learner. He discerns, as it actually is, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

MN 2

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
...
"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

[starter]

Hi culaavuso and chris,

Thanks for your helpful input. What I meant with the second stage of enlightenment is the stream entry (entered the N8P), while the first stage of enlightenment is gaining the faith on the Buddha and his teaching (becoming a faith follower and then a Dhamma follower, who have entered the path to stream entry). Sorry for the confusion.

To my understanding, the monastics who truly gained the faith on the Buddha and his teaching and left the household life are already faith followers starting their practice as "trainers" and following the Buddha's gradual teaching (starting from sila) to stream entry and higher. Those who haven't truly gained faith on the Buddha and his teaching should instead start from dana.

Metta to all!

Starter

[Ananda26]

As I understand from MN 48 Kosambiya Sutta, the Buddha actually taught us the footprints of a Sotāpanna, and how to examine if we have indeed obtained that noble right view (of 4NT):

1) "Bhikkhus, what is that noble view that leads to the beyond and rightfully shows the destruction of unpleasantness to one who thinks logically. Here. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu gone to a forest or to the root of a tree, or to an empty house reflects. Are there undispelled hindrances in me? Do they obstruct my mind, from knowing and seeing as it really is? Am I overcome by sensual lust, or is my mind hindered by them? Am I overcome by anger, or is my mind hindered by it? Am I overcome by sloth and torpor, or is my mind hindered by sloth and torpor? Am I overcome by restlessness and worry, or is my mind hindered by restlessness and worry? Is my mind overcome with doubts, about this world and the other world? Or am I with a dispute quarrelling, throwing rough words at others, is my mind hindered in this manner?"

The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary".

-- The first footprint of the fruit (the five hindrances are completely suppressed when realizing that view -- only a hindrance free mind can realize the truth).

2) "Again, the noble disciple reflects When I practise and develop this view much I experience internal appeasement [calming down], and internal extinction. This is the second noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The second footprint of the fruit [the practice of that view leads to peace]

3)"Again the noble disciple reflects. This view I have gained is it also the view of the recluses and brahmins of other sects.

Then he knows, this view with which I am endowed, is not shared by recluses and brahmins of other sects. This is the third noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The third footprint of the fruit

4) "Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain ...

This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The fourth footprint of the fruit

5) Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness of view? It is the unique characteristic of one come to righteousness view, to be greatly intent in completing any work high or low that has to be done for the co-associates in the holy life while remaining mindful in one’s high virtues, training, and high wisdom.

... Then he knows, I share this view, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m endowed with that unigue characteristic. This is the fifth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary.

-- The fifth footprint of the fruit (never become negligent of one's own training

6) "Again, the noble disciple reflects I share this power, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m endowed with that power.What is that power with which the one come to righteousness of view is endowed? One come to righteousness of view listens to the Teaching attending carefully to take the essential with the mind well concentrated.

Then he knows, I’m endowed with the power of one come to righteousness of view. This is the sixth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The sixth footprint of the fruit

7) "Again, the noble disciple reflects.I share this power, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m endowed, with that power What is that power with which the one come to righteousness of view is endowed? It is the power of one come to righteousness of view to listen to the Teaching taught by the Blessed One and gain the meanings, experience the Teaching and experience the joy.

Then he knows, with whatever power the one, come to righteousness of view is endowed, I too share that power. This is the seventh noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The seventh footprint of the fruit

"When the noble disciple is endowed with these seven characteristics, he is ready to realize the fruits of the entry into the stream of the Teaching."

Metta to all,

Starter

With the abandoning of 3 fetters one has become a stream winner, no more subject to rebirth in hell, no more subject to rebirth as an animal, no more subject to rebirth as a peta ghost, fixed in destiny with enlightenment as destination.

[starter]

Hi friends,

To obtain the fruit of stream entry and break the fetter of sakkāya-diṭṭhi in addition to the fetters of vicikicchā and sīlabbata-parāmāsa, faith followers and Dhamma followers must study and truly understand the five aggregates (not just nama-rupa, which does not include vinnana), contemplate them, and see them as they actually are with right wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ The difference between a stream enterer and the other three types of noble disciples (once returner, non-returner, and arahants) is that stream enterers have just arrived at the true understanding of the five aggregates but have not yet removed the clinging to them, while once returners and non-returners have removed such clinging to different degrees, and arahants have completely severed such clinging.

Only stream winners and above should teach others, but many teachers are or were deluded to believe that they were stream enterers or above when they haven't truly understood the five aggregates.

MN 35:

“But in what way is a disciple of the Master Gotama one who carries out his instruction, who responds to his advice, who has crossed beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation?” [This is the definition of a stream enterer.]

“Here, Aggivessana, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a disciple of mine sees all material form as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Any kind of feeling whatever…Any kind of perception whatever…Any kind of volitional formations whatever…Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ It is in this way that a disciple of mine is one who carries out my instruction, who responds to my advice, who has crossed beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.”

“Master Gotama, in what way is a bhikkhu an arahant with taints destroyed, one who has lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached his own goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and is completely liberated through final knowledge?”

“Here, Aggivessana, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a bhikkhu has seen all material form as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self,’ and through not clinging he is liberated. Any kind of feeling whatever…Any kind of perception whatever…Any kind of volitional formations whatever …Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a bhikkhu has seen all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self,’ and through not clinging he is liberated. It is in this way that a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed, one who has lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached his own goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and is completely liberated through final knowledge.

“When a bhikkhu’s mind is thus liberated, he possesses three unsurpassable qualities: unsurpassable vision, unsurpassable practice, and unsurpassable deliverance.378 When a bhikkhu is thus liberated, he still honours, respects, reveres, and venerates the Tathāgata thus: ‘The Blessed One is enlightened and he teaches the Dhamma for the sake of enlightenment. The Blessed One is tamed and he teaches the Dhamma for taming oneself. The Blessed One is at peace and he teaches the Dhamma for the sake of peace. The Blessed One has crossed over and he teaches the Dhamma for crossing over. The Blessed One has attained Nibbāna and he teaches the Dhamma for attaining Nibbāna.’”

Studying and contemplating the six sense fields as taught in MN 146 also helps.

MN 146:
...
"When they were seated, the venerable Nandaka told the bhikkhunīs:
... “Sisters, what do you think? Is the eye permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”
“Sisters, what do you think? Is the ear....the nose...the tongue...the body...the mind [the mind is only a sense faculty] permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six internal bases are impermanent.’”

“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, what do you think? Are forms…sounds…odours… flavours…tangibles…mind-objects permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six external bases are impermanent.’”
“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, what do you think? Is eye-consciousness… ear-consciousness…nose-consciousness…tongue-consciousness… body-consciousness…mind-consciousness permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”— “Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six classes of consciousness are impermanent.’”
“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, suppose an oil-lamp is burning: its oil is impermanent and subject to change, its wick is impermanent and subject to change, its flame is impermanent and subject to change, and its radiance is impermanent and subject to change. Now would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘While this oil-lamp is burning, its oil, wick, and flame are impermanent and subject to change, but its radiance is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, while that oil-lamp is burning, its oil, wick, and flame are impermanent and subject to change, so its radiance must be impermanent and subject to change.”
“So too, sisters, would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘These six internal bases are impermanent and subject to change, but the pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling that one experiences in dependence upon the six internal bases is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.”
“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, suppose a great tree is standing possessed of heartwood: its root is impermanent and subject to change, its trunk is impermanent and subject to change, its branches and foliage are impermanent and subject to change, and its shadow is impermanent and subject to change. Now would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘The root, trunk, branches, and foliage of this great tree standing possessed of heartwood are impermanent and subject to change, but its shadow is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, the root, trunk, branches, and foliage of this great tree standing possessed of heartwood are impermanent and subject to change, so its shadow must be impermanent and subject to change.”
“So too, sisters, would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘These six external bases are impermanent and subject to change, but the pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling that one experiences in dependence upon the six external bases is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.”

“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh （six internal bases）and without damaging the outer hide （six external bases）, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments （delight and lust / inner defilements, fetters, and bonds) with the sharp butcher’s knife (noble wisdom）. Then having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow…and cut, sever, and carve all that away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”
“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds. ...”

May we be liberated this very life. Much metta,

Starter

[confusedlayman]

is fruition of stream entry associated with bliss of jhana and their factors (to basic starting level bliss) or perfect equanimity? positive feeling or neutral feeling?

[SteRo]

is fruition of stream entry associated with bliss of jhana and their factors (to basic starting level bliss) or perfect equanimity? positive feeling or neutral feeling?

All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the development
of wisdom (paññā) — insight into the three characteristics of impermanence (anicca),
suffering (dukkha), and non-self (anattā). However, they differ among themselves in the
degree of their development of concentration (samādhi). Those who develop insight
without a basis of jhāna are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When
they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding
to the first jhāna.
Those who develop insight on the basis of jhāna attain a path and fruit that
corresponds to the level of jhāna they had attained before reaching the path. The ancient
teachers advance different views on the question of what factor determines the jhāna
level of the path and fruit. One school of thought holds that it is the basic jhāna
(pādakajjhāna), that is, the jhāna used as a basis for concentrating the mind before
developing the insight that culminates in attainment of the supramundane path. A second
theory holds that the jhāna level of the path is determined by the jhāna used as an object
for investigation by insight, called “the comprehended jhāna” (sammasitajjhāna) or
“investigated jhāna.” Still a third school of thought holds that, when a meditator has
mastered a range of jhānas, he can control the jhāna level of the path by his personal
wish or inclination (ajjhāsaya).43
Nevertheless, no matter what explanation is adopted, for bare insight meditator
and jhāna meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhāna
consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely
contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhānas, and because
they possess the jhāna factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the
mundane jhānas. The supramundane jhānas of the paths and fruits differ from the
mundane jhānas in several important respects. First, whereas the mundane jhānas take as
their object some concept, such as the sign of the kasiṇa, the supramundane jhānas take
as their object Nibbāna, the unconditioned reality. Second, whereas the mundane jhānas
merely suppress the defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the
supramundane jhānas of the path eradicate defilements so that they can never again arise.
Third, while the mundane jhānas lead to rebirth in the fine-material world and thus
sustain existence in the round of rebirths (saṁsāra), the jhānas of the path cut off the
fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and
death. Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhānas is subordinate to that
of concentration, in the supramundane jhānas, wisdom and concentration are well
balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and wisdom
fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths.

[coconut]

is fruition of stream entry associated with bliss of jhana and their factors (to basic starting level bliss) or perfect equanimity? positive feeling or neutral feeling?

Yes. It's the first time one overcomes the 5 hindrances, which temporarily suppresses craving and dukkha.

[confusedlayman]

is fruition of stream entry associated with bliss of jhana and their factors (to basic starting level bliss) or perfect equanimity? positive feeling or neutral feeling?

Yes. It's the first time one overcomes the 5 hindrances, which temporarily suppresses craving and dukkha.

so its bliss or its equanimity?

[coconut]

is fruition of stream entry associated with bliss of jhana and their factors (to basic starting level bliss) or perfect equanimity? positive feeling or neutral feeling?

Yes. It's the first time one overcomes the 5 hindrances, which temporarily suppresses craving and dukkha.

so its bliss or its equanimity?

According to the suttas, I don't know. It's either one needs to reach first jhana minimum or fourth jhana, but at least first jhana.

If it requires executing the entire noble eightfold path, then one can argue fourth jhana. But, technically, it's also considered Samma Samadhi if there ekaggata in first jhana.

[starter]

AN 9.12: With Something Left Over

"... Furthermore, there’s a person who has fulfilled ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. With the ending of three fetters, they have at most seven rebirths. They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans and then make an end of suffering. This is the ninth person …"

SN 25.3: Viññana Sutta: Consciousness

"There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in wisdom. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening."

TMHO, what's important is that the "limited immersion and wisdom" is enough to break the three fetters; as long as the three fetters are truly broken, he is a stream-winner.

Metta to all,

Starter

[Ontheway]

Hi friends,

To obtain the fruit of stream entry and break the fetter of sakkāya-diṭṭhi in addition to the fetters of vicikicchā and sīlabbata-parāmāsa, faith followers and Dhamma followers must study and truly understand the five aggregates (not just nama-rupa, which does not include vinnana), contemplate them, and see them as they actually are with right wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ The difference between a stream enterer and the other three types of noble disciples (once returner, non-returner, and arahants) is that stream enterers have just arrived at the true understanding of the five aggregates but have not yet removed the clinging to them, while once returners and non-returners have removed such clinging to different degrees, and arahants have completely severed such clinging.

Only stream winners and above should teach others, but many teachers are or were deluded to believe that they were stream enterers or above when they haven't truly understood the five aggregates.

MN 35:

“But in what way is a disciple of the Master Gotama one who carries out his instruction, who responds to his advice, who has crossed beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation?” [This is the definition of a stream enterer.]

“Here, Aggivessana, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a disciple of mine sees all material form as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Any kind of feeling whatever…Any kind of perception whatever…Any kind of volitional formations whatever…Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ It is in this way that a disciple of mine is one who carries out my instruction, who responds to my advice, who has crossed beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s Dispensation.”

“Master Gotama, in what way is a bhikkhu an arahant with taints destroyed, one who has lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached his own goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and is completely liberated through final knowledge?”

“Here, Aggivessana, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a bhikkhu has seen all material form as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self,’ and through not clinging he is liberated. Any kind of feeling whatever…Any kind of perception whatever…Any kind of volitional formations whatever …Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—a bhikkhu has seen all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self,’ and through not clinging he is liberated. It is in this way that a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed, one who has lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached his own goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and is completely liberated through final knowledge.

“When a bhikkhu’s mind is thus liberated, he possesses three unsurpassable qualities: unsurpassable vision, unsurpassable practice, and unsurpassable deliverance.378 When a bhikkhu is thus liberated, he still honours, respects, reveres, and venerates the Tathāgata thus: ‘The Blessed One is enlightened and he teaches the Dhamma for the sake of enlightenment. The Blessed One is tamed and he teaches the Dhamma for taming oneself. The Blessed One is at peace and he teaches the Dhamma for the sake of peace. The Blessed One has crossed over and he teaches the Dhamma for crossing over. The Blessed One has attained Nibbāna and he teaches the Dhamma for attaining Nibbāna.’”

Studying and contemplating the six sense fields as taught in MN 146 also helps.

MN 146:
...
"When they were seated, the venerable Nandaka told the bhikkhunīs:
... “Sisters, what do you think? Is the eye permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”
“Sisters, what do you think? Is the ear....the nose...the tongue...the body...the mind [the mind is only a sense faculty] permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six internal bases are impermanent.’”

“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, what do you think? Are forms…sounds…odours… flavours…tangibles…mind-objects permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six external bases are impermanent.’”
“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, what do you think? Is eye-consciousness… ear-consciousness…nose-consciousness…tongue-consciousness… body-consciousness…mind-consciousness permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”— “Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six classes of consciousness are impermanent.’”
“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, suppose an oil-lamp is burning: its oil is impermanent and subject to change, its wick is impermanent and subject to change, its flame is impermanent and subject to change, and its radiance is impermanent and subject to change. Now would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘While this oil-lamp is burning, its oil, wick, and flame are impermanent and subject to change, but its radiance is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, while that oil-lamp is burning, its oil, wick, and flame are impermanent and subject to change, so its radiance must be impermanent and subject to change.”
“So too, sisters, would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘These six internal bases are impermanent and subject to change, but the pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling that one experiences in dependence upon the six internal bases is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.”
“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, suppose a great tree is standing possessed of heartwood: its root is impermanent and subject to change, its trunk is impermanent and subject to change, its branches and foliage are impermanent and subject to change, and its shadow is impermanent and subject to change. Now would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘The root, trunk, branches, and foliage of this great tree standing possessed of heartwood are impermanent and subject to change, but its shadow is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, the root, trunk, branches, and foliage of this great tree standing possessed of heartwood are impermanent and subject to change, so its shadow must be impermanent and subject to change.”
“So too, sisters, would anyone be speaking rightly who spoke thus: ‘These six external bases are impermanent and subject to change, but the pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling that one experiences in dependence upon the six external bases is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.”

“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.
“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh （six internal bases）and without damaging the outer hide （six external bases）, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments （delight and lust / inner defilements, fetters, and bonds) with the sharp butcher’s knife (noble wisdom）. Then having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”
“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow…and cut, sever, and carve all that away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”
“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds. ...”

May we be liberated this very life. Much metta,

Starter

Totally agree with this. A proper understanding on 5 aggregates and their characteristics is important to severe Sakkaya Ditthi.

[confusedlayman]

I think non thinking or non fabrication is direct seeing of nibbana .. can someone correct me ?

[cappuccino]

can someone correct me ?

thinking is irrelevant