Samatha and vipassana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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JackV
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Samatha and vipassana

Post by JackV »

Hi.

About a year ago (or maybe less, i'm not entirely sure) I was extremely regular with my mediatation practice; everyday for at least 45mins.
Since that time I have not done anything and I have started recently to feel dissapointed with myself for slacking and a desire to really get back on it, however I am now finding a few things challenging
Initially I was practicing Samatha for a few months to try and get my concentration and attention trained up a little before anything else. This after the years I have spent abusing my senses seemed the wisest thing to do, mindfullness was the pole opposite of how I had been spending my time.
I then 'moved on' so to speak to vipassana.
Now I am trying to get back into routine again my overthinking mind keeps confusing me. When I practiced Sammatha I focused on the air entering and leaving my nostrils focusing directly on one part of the nose. Anything that popped up into the mind I would promptly label accordingly and then put my attention back onto my object.
Then with Vipassana I would focus on the abdomen movement, that is rising and falling, and then when anything came to attention I would (exactly as previously explained) label it accordingly and move my attention back to the rising and falling.

Well now I am trying to get back into it my over thinking brain keeps over analysing the process. I am concerned that if I try to follow, for instance, the way of thinking of Ajahn Chah (that the two processes are inseperable) that I will find it too difficult to change the object of focus from the nose to the abdomen. So one of my questions is why do we focus on the abdomen in Vipassana rather than the nose?
Secondly, and related to the previous point, should I then do one practice and the other, or simply get onto focusing on the abdomen and then stick with it?
Also (and sorry i know this is a lot of questions) I have started to concern myself that I have got something wrong or confused over time due to the fact that the two practices that I was instructed in seem to be identical apart from the object of focus- that is the nose or the abdomen. Is this right? I don't want to get into wrong practice and then cement it in my routine.
I'm sure such concerns will dissapte soon and only have the urgency they do due to the componded fact that I have started to admonish myself for laziness and my mind is far from clear right now because of my (recently ended) smoking habits.

So please dear people could you help me out of my (self inflicted) foolish wanderings.

As always, thank you in advance

Jack
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bodom
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by bodom »

So one of my questions is why do we focus on the abdomen in Vipassana rather than the nose?
Vipassana is not "nose awareness" or "abdomen awareness". These are merely points of focus to achieve one pointedness of mind. Vipassana is the direct seeing of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non self in all mental and physical phenomenon or the five aggregates.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
JackV
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by JackV »

bodom wrote:
So one of my questions is why do we focus on the abdomen in Vipassana rather than the nose?
Vipassana is not "nose awareness" or "abdomen awareness". These are merely points of focus to achieve one pointedness of mind. Vipassana is the direct seeing of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non self in all mental and physical phenomenon or the five aggregates.

:anjali:
I am aware of this. My question is why do we have a different focus points? My reason for asking is related to the other questions which I have asked. Does it matter if I stick with just focusing on my nose, or on my abdomen? Should I just choose one and then continue to observe all phenomenom labling as I go through?
If the answer is yes then I am finding the distincion between Sammatha and Vipassana confusing.
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daverupa
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by daverupa »

Distinguishing the two is a problem, because there is no reason to do so, afaik. They are developed in tandem.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nicro
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by Nicro »

It seems to me that by focusing on the nose it creates a more narrowed concentration, while in the abdomen you observe chest, collar bones, and stomach all moving up and down, being filled with space and collapsing etc.. I had a somewhat similar question in a thread I did.

When I do samatha I don't note. If a thought arises I immediately push it aside and go back to breath. This forms and narrower and somewhat "harder"(not sure how to phrase it) concentration. While from what I have been doing with vipassana and advice I got about it, it is about watching the constant change. With samtha you attention becomes glued to that little part of your nose, with vipassana you maintain an overall awareness of the rising, falling, general movement of breath as well as noting any other things that come into consciousness. A very subtle difference.

But they are pretty much the same. They synergize. No concentration without mindfulness, no mindfulness with out concentration. To me it seems vipassana is basically samtha that is less rigid in that you are open to all that comes instead of staying set on one and only one thing. And I am starting to find that focusing on the rising falling is conducive to that in that you are focusing on different things happening in a bigger area therefore giving you a wider awareness of whatever else might enter consciousness instead of focusing on one little sensation on one little spot, which like I said forms a narrow concentration.

Somebody correct me if I'm off point.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I cannot say much about Samatha, as I have barely practised it, except in conjunction with vipassanā. From what I have read, there is a big difference between concentration for insight and concentration for tranquillity.

Samatha > Narrowing of focus on one object
Vipassanā < Opening of awareness on many objects

Vipassanā Jhānas
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JackV
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by JackV »

Nicro wrote:It seems to me that by focusing on the nose it creates a more narrowed concentration, while in the abdomen you observe chest, collar bones, and stomach all moving up and down, being filled with space and collapsing etc.. I had a somewhat similar question in a thread I did.

When I do samatha I don't note. If a thought arises I immediately push it aside and go back to breath. This forms and narrower and somewhat "harder"(not sure how to phrase it) concentration. While from what I have been doing with vipassana and advice I got about it, it is about watching the constant change. With samtha you attention becomes glued to that little part of your nose, with vipassana you maintain an overall awareness of the rising, falling, general movement of breath as well as noting any other things that come into consciousness. A very subtle difference.

But they are pretty much the same. They synergize. No concentration without mindfulness, no mindfulness with out concentration. To me it seems vipassana is basically samtha that is less rigid in that you are open to all that comes instead of staying set on one and only one thing. And I am starting to find that focusing on the rising falling is conducive to that in that you are focusing on different things happening in a bigger area therefore giving you a wider awareness of whatever else might enter consciousness instead of focusing on one little sensation on one little spot, which like I said forms a narrow concentration.

Somebody correct me if I'm off point.

Thanks, to you and Bhikkhu Pesala for this. It really was just pure worry, I knew it but I just need occasionally to get external confirmation of things.

Yeah I know that over analysis is usually unhelpful, just letting things flow and detachedly observe and note is better.

Well I am off to start on this.

Jack
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mikenz66
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Jack,

I found what I quoted from U Pandita here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 25#p118007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; useful for clarifying some of these issues.

My view is that, as others have said, these things are developed in tandem. However, there can be an emphasis on one or the other and that's what the different approaches do.

My advice is to pick an approach you find useful (preferably an approach for which you've had some personal instruction) and follow that for a few months, rather than try to mix up instructions from different sources.

:anjali:
Mike
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Alexei
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by Alexei »

According to the early texts there is no such thing as a "narrow concentration": http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JackV
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by JackV »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Jack,

I found what I quoted from U Pandita here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 25#p118007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; useful for clarifying some of these issues.

My view is that, as others have said, these things are developed in tandem. However, there can be an emphasis on one or the other and that's what the different approaches do.

My advice is to pick an approach you find useful (preferably an approach for which you've had some personal instruction) and follow that for a few months, rather than try to mix up instructions from different sources.

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks! Yeah when I was at the temple classes last (some time ago now) I asked a similar question and the lay instructor simply said it had something to do with the air element and said that it wasn't really the time to go into detail.

I shall give all of this a thorough reading and get myself into action. Pow.
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Nicro
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by Nicro »

Alexei wrote:According to the early texts there is no such thing as a "narrow concentration": http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What would I call it then? I'm not sure how to put it in that case. But with samtha you are focusing on ONE spot and when you achieve Jhana you will have perfect concentration on said spot. With Vipassana you have a much wider awareness. So calling it narrow concentration just seems like an appropriate term to me.
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Alexei
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by Alexei »

Hello Nicro,

Concentration is a singleness (ekaggatā) of mind, and ekaggatā isn't a narrow concentration on one spot or one-pointedness (though it's widespread translation of this term).

Similes from Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
Then let your attention return to any spot in the body where it feels most naturally settled and centered. Simply let your attention rest there, at one with the breath. At the same time let the range of your awareness spread out so that it fills the entire body, like the light of a candle in the middle of a room: the candle flame is in one spot, but its light fills the entire room. Or like a spider on a web: the spider's in one spot, but it knows the whole web.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... uided.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
wildfox7
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by wildfox7 »

JackV,

How about if I give you a straight answer to your worthwhile question? An answer you will never get from the textual wonks. An answer you can research to confirm. An answer you will then confirm in your practice. An answer the moderator will never approve, but true to demonstrate nonetheless.

First off, scratch any supposed differences between samatha and vipassana. That's for the wonks to worry over. If you do enough of each, you will recognize a lack of distinction between them. All meditation methods are the same, except for one variable: the selection of the initial object of attention. The beginner needs the most concrete (as opposed to abstract) object of attention, as it is easiest to hold and to compare to the onslaught of adventitious objects rambling through the conscious mind. The single indispensable quality of the object is that it must interest the meditator. When you get thoroughly disgusted with the object, and the density of mental distractions lessens, then you change to a slightly more abstract (subtle) object. This is demonstrated in the Appendix table of Gunaratana's classic book on Jhanas, where 40 meditation objects are cross referenced to 5 stages of meditation progress. There is no missing that the most concrete objects only take you to the earliest phases of meditative development, while the more abstract objects are useful for the more mature stages of meditation. There are many websites where you can free download that book.

The reason the teacher tells you to start by locating the point just below the navel is because it is constantly accessible to your attention, because it is always moving (as you breathe) and you can always feel it. Quick to relocate when you lose it, as you will many times. If you choose an object that is too abstract, then your attentional point of reference is too unstable and you will be often lost among the adventitious mental distractions.

Good Sitting!
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cooran
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by cooran »

Hello JackV,

Samatha and Vipassana are two sides of the same coin:

http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/fun ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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rowyourboat
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Re: Samatha and vipassana

Post by rowyourboat »

IMO samatha and vipassana are mutually supportive; and need each other to each the culmination of their respective development. To they are two sides of the same coin is valid IMO only in that sense. It is possible to vipassana with only one object (while agreeing that, that is not common) and there can be samatha development with multiple objects, when it doesn't feel any thing like what is below.

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
-Silavant sutta

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