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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:11 am
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote: Can one control contact? No.
Depends. There is always going to be contact, but via the choice I make via the intention I bring to bear, I can alter the contact I have.
So one cannot control the Kamma that is being done.
Kamma is not a passive thing.
If that were the case, may I do only that Kamma which leads to awakening! May I never do bad kamma! Unfortunately these things cannot be controlled like that.
This is a distorted picture.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:16 am
by tiltbillings
Alex123 wrote:
bodom wrote:
You know, I've tried to control the thoughts and reactions. It doesn't work..
You haven't attained mastery of mind:
Right. There is no Master, no Overlord who can control the mind. Neither mine, nor Self for the Buddha.
None of these things, but there is still choice, intention, will.
Thought happens due to impersonal causes and conditions (mano + dhamma), and not due to some Self. It is all fully conditioned and happens because that is the only way it could happen.
Don't need a "Self" for there to be willed action, choice.
Not even the Buddha could have it 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' Same goes for other khandhas.
Give us the full context of that, please.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:18 am
by tiltbillings
bodom wrote:Well then according to you were all screwed alex. None of us has the choice to follow and practice the Buddha's path. We are all bound to samsara forever.
He is giving us the Makkhali Gosala point of view and calling it the Buddha's teachings, and we know what the Buddha said about Makkhali Gosala.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:39 am
by Viscid
bodom wrote: Right. There is choice, there is free will. This was my only point to begin with. Where is the problem and what do we disagree on?

:anjali:
Well if you define choice as the feeling that we have the capability to change our behaviour, then we have no disagreement. But that feeling of choice is an epiphenomenon of a deterministic (if a bit chaotic) system which self-regulates through a type of feedback loop, without any external agency involved.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:49 am
by tiltbillings
Viscid wrote:
bodom wrote: Right. There is choice, there is free will. This was my only point to begin with. Where is the problem and what do we disagree on?

:anjali:
Well if you define choice as the feeling that we have the capability to change our behaviour, then we have no disagreement. But that feeling of choice is an epiphenomenon of a deterministic (if a bit chaotic) system which self-regulates through a type of feedback loop, without any external agency involved.
And what does that mean in the real world? Are you saying, as Alex seems to saying, we have no choice, no will, no intention to act and no action dependent upon the intention?

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:08 am
by Viscid
tiltbillings wrote:Are you saying, as Alex seems to saying, we have no choice, no will, no intention to act and no action dependent upon the intention?
No choice: I said we are convinced we have this thing called 'choice,' but there is no clear definition as to what choice is.

No will, intention, action: If I'm hungry, I will eat. There is intention insofar as we experience intent. But do I have this intention because I choose to have this intention? No. My stomach is empty and I haven't eaten for a day, so I am hungry. Intention arises without effort.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:26 am
by tiltbillings
Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Are you saying, as Alex seems to saying, we have no choice, no will, no intention to act and no action dependent upon the intention?
No choice: I said we are convinced we have this thing called 'choice,' but there is no clear definition as to what choice is.

No will, intention, action: If I'm hungry, I will eat. There is intention insofar as we experience intent. But do I have this intention because I choose to have this intention? No. My stomach is empty and I haven't eaten for a day, so I am hungry. Intention arises without effort.
Wow. So, we are simply organic automata in control of nothing, simply being pushed about by conditions of which we have absolutely no control. I did not know the Buddha taught that.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:33 am
by Viscid
Wow. So, we are simply organic automata in control of nothing, simply being pushed about by conditions of which we have absolutely no control. I did not know the Buddha taught that.
I'm not speaking for the Buddha or Buddhism, just what I currently feel is the truth of how things really are.

But the feeling of choice, the metacognition of choice, is incredibly important! If we did not feel like we had a choice, we would just respond immediately by reaction. We'd be fatalists. We wouldn't improve our moral conduct, we wouldn't want to gradually expand our knowledge about the world-- we simply would not have the capacity to have the characteristics that make us human. I'm not dismissing choice; it's just not something which transcends cause and effect.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:43 am
by tiltbillings
Viscid wrote:
Wow. So, we are simply organic automata in control of nothing, simply being pushed about by conditions of which we have absolutely no control. I did not know the Buddha taught that.
I'm not speaking for the Buddha or Buddhism,
I, however, am.
just what I currently feel is the truth of how things really are.
I think I'll go with the Buddha.
But the feeling of choice, the metacognition of choice, is incredibly important! If we did not feel like we had a choice, we would just respond immediately by reaction. We'd be fatalists. We wouldn't improve our moral conduct, we wouldn't want to gradually expand our knowledge about the world-- we simply would not have the capacity to have the characteristics that make us human. I'm not dismissing choice; it's just not something which transcends cause and effect.
I never said choice did transcend cause and effect, but you position lacks a certain clarity. So, you are saying we, in fact, have choice.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:50 am
by Viscid
tiltbillings wrote:I never said choice did transcend cause and effect, but you position lacks a certain clarity. So, you are saying we, in fact, have choice.
Listen: you give me a clear definition of 'choice' and I'll tell you whether or not I agree with it.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:03 am
by tiltbillings
Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I never said choice did transcend cause and effect, but you position lacks a certain clarity. So, you are saying we, in fact, have choice.
Listen: you give me a clear definition of 'choice' and I'll tell you whether or not I agree with it.
And I should care if you agree with it or not?

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:05 am
by tiltbillings
I'll go with a straighfoward, conventional definition: Choice consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them.

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:10 am
by Viscid
tiltbillings wrote:I'll go with a straighfoward, conventional definition: Choice consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them.
Sure, no prob. Any programmed, deterministic artificial intelligence is capable of making a 'choice' which satisfies that definition also. (If you swap 'mental' with 'computational')

Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:29 am
by tiltbillings
Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I'll go with a straighfoward, conventional definition: Choice consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them.
Sure, no prob. Any programmed, deterministic artificial intelligence is capable of making a 'choice' which satisfies that definition also. (If you swap 'mental' with 'computational')
I don't think so. Again, I have no problem framing human choice within the context of condionality, but what we are looking at is hardly a hard determinism, in which there no need for choice or even the illusion of it. Is an AI self aware? Can it act other than how it is programmed? We are not quite yet to the point of HAL 9000, but even if we were, that would not negate choice as an actual human process.

As I said, I'll go with the Buddha on this, seeing no reason not to.


Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:31 am
by Viscid
tiltbillings wrote:I don't think so.
Of course it does. A chess program will weigh the strategical benefit of many options of where to move a chess piece and choose the best move to make. According to you, our ability to make choices is equivalent to that of a computer's.
tiltbillings wrote:II'll go with a straighfoward, conventional definition: Choice consists of the mental process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them.