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Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:29 pm
by smokey
Buddha's key innovative teaching is that Jhana should be combined with the practice of Vipassana. But today rarely anyone practices Vipassana while in a state of Jhana. That is a common major mistake because practicing as I call it "dry Vipassana" is difficult and gaining an insight knowledge is also much more difficult. Jhana enhances concentration and mindfulness while it is a state of rapture, joy and non-sensual pleasure.

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:56 pm
by Assaji
Hi Smokey,

Here's a relevant quotation:

"The suddhivipassanayanika yogi, the subject under discussion, is the lowest of several types of yogis, and he needs not develop jhana particularly to dispel the hindrances before the contemplation of the four foundations of mindfullness. He dispels them while contemplating on the four foundations of mindfullness. He has to do so because he is not possessed of special powers. He is like a person, who, having no boat to cross by, has to swim across the river."

http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E24/E24ch03.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems that nobody is against jhana.

Metta, Dmytro

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:38 pm
by mikenz66
Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote: It seems that nobody is against jhana.
I agree. It's something of a straw man argument to line up "jhana vs dry vipassana". Clearly one needs to develop mindfulness and concentration to make any progress. My teachers have never been negative about highly concentrated states. If they come they come and one is mindful of them.

Since there are a number of widely differing interpretation of exactly what jhana is, I don't find it particularly useful to worry about whether some state is or isn't jhana. In my understanding the important thing is to clearly see the characteristics of whatever state arises (and, of course, ceases...).

Metta
Mike

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:36 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:In my understanding the important thing is to clearly see the characteristics of whatever state arises (and, of course, ceases...).
If you're practicing vipassana, yes.

An alternative method is to advance deep into the jhanas and then retrospectively reflect on one's experiences afterwards.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:13 am
by seanpdx
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:In my understanding the important thing is to clearly see the characteristics of whatever state arises (and, of course, ceases...).
If you're practicing vipassana, yes.

An alternative method is to advance deep into the jhanas and then retrospectively reflect on one's experiences afterwards.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I'm curious if anyone in this forum has read Alexander Wynne's "The Origin of Buddhist Meditation"? If so, any thoughts?

(For those of you unfamiliar with it, note that it was, IIRC, Wynne's doctoral thesis. And reads like one.)

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:55 am
by mikenz66
Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:In my understanding the important thing is to clearly see the characteristics of whatever state arises (and, of course, ceases...).
If you're practicing vipassana, yes.
On the contrary, all the instructions I've seen regarding jhana either discuss seeing the impermanence and ultimate unsatisfactoriness of the jhana (which is, after all, just another conditioned state), either during (if you take a "sutta-jhana" definition) or after, as you say below, if you're using a deeper ("commentarial-jhana") definition:
retrofuturist wrote: An alternative method is to advance deep into the jhanas and then retrospectively reflect on one's experiences afterwards.
The former approach is detailed in MN111: Anupada Sutta: One After Another
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
And so on for all the jhanas and immaterial attainments.

My point was that when I find myself in a highly concentrated state, I apply the approach described above in the sutta without worrying about whether or not it is actually jhana. I.e. I try to be mindful of the qualities of the current state and how they are changing. And I keep in mind the passage that I bolded: "There is a further escape."

Of course, there are some interesting exercises that are recommended if you really know where you are and how to control which jhana you are in, such as going up and down through the different levels, but even if the sates I get to are jhana (which I doubt), I don't have such control.

Metta
Mike

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:02 am
by BlackBird
Dmytro wrote:"The suddhivipassanayanika yogi, the subject under discussion, is the lowest of several types of yogis, and he needs not develop jhana particularly to dispel the hindrances before the contemplation of the four foundations of mindfullness. He dispels them while contemplating on the four foundations of mindfullness. He has to do so because he is not possessed of special powers. He is like a person, who, having no boat to cross by, has to swim across the river."
Hi Dmytro

I am quite interested in this classification, I was wondering if you could point me to some more stuff on it, couldn't find much beyond your quote in the source page.

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:07 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,

I don't see how it's "on the contrary"? MN 111 commences with...
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another
That is vipassana. The Pali text for that passage even says vipassanam vipassi.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:19 am
by mikenz66
Hi BlackBird,
BlackBird wrote: I am quite interested in this classification, I was wondering if you could point me to some more stuff on it, couldn't find much beyond your quote in the source page.
That page is part of a long and technical argument between students of Mahasi Sayadaw and a Sri Lankan monk that was published as letters to a Buddhist journal back in the 50s or 60s (and subsequently collected into a book - a friend gave me a copy recently). As I understand it the key point of controversy was whether the concentration developed by following Ven Mahasi's instructions is enough to sufficiently suppress the hindrances for insight to develop. Thus there is much technical discussion of what "momentary" and "access" concentration mean, with many technical and difficult references to commentaries such as the commentary to the satipatthana sutta.

Sorry, that doesn't answer your question, but I hope it puts it into perspective.

Metta
Mike

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:00 am
by mikenz66
Hi Retro,

Perhaps I misunderstood your original post.
retrofuturist wrote: I don't see how it's "on the contrary"? MN 111 commences with...
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another
That is vipassana. The Pali text for that passage even says vipassanam vipassi.
Yes, insight into the jhanic states that he was cultivating.

The "contrary" was a response to my (probably mistaken) impression that you were saying that one had to be doing either jhana or vipassana, as separate exercises. In the sutta the insights seem to be into the characteristics of the jhanas. Some teachers teach like the above sutta - watch what is happening in the jhana (e.g. Shaila Catherine in her book "Focussed and Fearless"). Others claim that this is impossible, and one has to emerge from the jhana to contemplate it (e.g. Ajahn Brahm, "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond). I have Either way, the insight is intimately entwined with the jhana.

Metta
Mike

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:05 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The "contrary" was a response to my (probably mistaken) impression that you were saying that one had to be doing either jhana or vipassana, as separate exercises.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was just distinguishing between vipassana and samatha.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:55 am
by tiltbillings
The question of jhanas is not as straightforward as we might like. In the following website http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Leigh Brasington makes this pertinent observation:

1. There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas.
2. We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing.
3. Since it is very clear that the Buddha did not regard the Jhanas as anything more than a tool, what is really important is not so much which version you learn, but that you apply the jhanic state of mind to insight practice, either while still in the Jhana or immediately thereafter.

Smokey’s statement - But today rarely anyone practices Vipassana while in a state of Jhana. That is a common major mistake because practicing as I call it "dry Vipassana" is difficult and gaining an insight knowledge is also much more difficult. Jhana enhances concentration and mindfulness while it is a state of rapture, joy and non-sensual pleasure. - does not quite tell the full picture. What do we mean by jhana based upon teachings and what teachers? "Dry vipassana" requires a considerable amount of concentration, but to say it is harder to do without jhana misses the point of the likely difficulty of jhana, if teachers as Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw are to be believed.

It also misses the point of the “vipassana jhanas” as spelled in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, which suggests that the traditional Visuddhimagga accounting probably does tell the full story about what jhanas might be.

Two talks on vipassana jhanas:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/305/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/170/talk/3940/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:45 am
by pt1
tiltbillings wrote: It also misses the point of the “vipassana jhanas” as spelled in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, which suggests that the traditional Visuddhimagga accounting probably does tell the full story about what jhanas might be.
Erm, tilt, did you maybe mean to say that it doesn't tell the full story? As in:
tiltbillings wrote: The Mahasi Sayadaw "vipassana jhanas" are clearly a recognition that the traditional descriptions, as in the Buddhsghosa, do not fully cover the experience(s)..
from: Modernish theravada history

Out of interest, what kind of concentration would vipassana jhana have as a basis? Momentary, neighborhood or absorption? Thanks.

Best wishes

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:20 am
by tiltbillings
pt1 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: It also misses the point of the “vipassana jhanas” as spelled in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, which suggests that the traditional Visuddhimagga accounting probably does tell the full story about what jhanas might be.
Erm, tilt, did you maybe mean to say that it doesn't tell the full story? As in:
tiltbillings wrote: The Mahasi Sayadaw "vipassana jhanas" are clearly a recognition that the traditional descriptions, as in the Buddhsghosa, do not fully cover the experience(s)..
from: Modernish theravada history

Out of interest, what kind of concentration would vipassana jhana have as a basis? Momentary, neighborhood or absorption? Thanks.

Best wishes
Yes, well, I need to fire my proof reader. It should read: It also misses the point of the “vipassana jhanas,” as spelled in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, suggests that the traditional Visuddhimagga accounting probably does NOT tell the full story about what jhanas might be.
Out of interest, what kind of concentration would vipassana jhana have as a basis? Momentary, neighborhood or absorption? Thanks
Interesting question, to which I really had not given much thought. "Momentary, neighborhood or absorption" are not really that clear cut as experiences, though when one is solidy in a "fixed" one pointed concentration, that is quite distinct. The vipassana jhanas seem to be something far more fluid a "fixed" one pointed concentration, but also quite deep. Maybe a bit more than access but not yet fixed, giving the possibility of "momentary" aspect to the experience.

And just a side note: Buddhaghosa. Lacksadaisical proofreaders all around.

Re: Jhana + Vipassana

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:40 am
by pt1
Thanks tilt.
tiltbillings wrote:The vipassana jhanas seem to be something far more fluid a "fixed" one pointed concentration, but also quite deep. Maybe a bit more than access but not yet fixed, giving the possibility of "momentary" aspect to the experience.
It's interesting that what you describe here is very similar to advanced practice of a dry-insighter described by B.Bodhi in ACMA, pg.348 (Jack, this also partly addresses your request):
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The other approach, called the vehicle of pure insight (suddhavipassanayana), does not employ the development of calm as a foundation for developing insight. Instead the meditator, after purifying his morality, enters directly into the mindful contemplation of the changing mental and material processes in his own experience. As this contemplation gains in strength and precision, the mind becomes naturally concentrated upon the ever-changing steam of experience with a degree of concentration equal to that of access concentration. This moment-by-moment fixing of the mind on the matearial and mental processes in their present immediacy is known as momentary concentration (khanikasamadhi). Because it involves a degree of mental stabilization equal to that of access concentration, this momentary concentration is reckoned as purification of mind for the vipassanayanika meditator, the meditator who adopts the vehicle of pure insight. Such a meditator is also called a "dry insight worker" (sukkhavipassaka) because he develops inishg twithout the "moisture" of the jhanas.


This seems pretty similar to what you are saying, so perhaps "vipassana jhanas" are a modern term for something which was already described in the old commentaries?

Best wishes