When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Alex123
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When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by Alex123 »

It is over simplification that Dhamma is against all kinds of thinking. In various suttas there is distinction between wrong thinking (with sensuality, ill will, cruelty, etc) and right thinking (with renunciation, non-ill will, non cruelty). Many contemplations (such as a death contemplation, revulsion with whole world, drawbacks, etc) seem to involve discursive element. I myself like to read and/or think over themes of anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta, 4 elements, nutriment, etc.

But I wonder: At what point should I drop correct thinking and "contemplate in silence" ? Is it possible that after some point (which one?) thinking, even right thinking, is too coarse and just a hindrance for higher level?



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any comments?

With best wishes,

Alex
SarathW
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by SarathW »

I would say Noble Eight Path is the right path.
Arahant will have additional Right Knowledge and Right Release.
At that point it is impossible for you to make an un wholesome act.
Consciousness will stop only when you are in Cessation of Perception and Feeling.
Until such time you have to have the right thinking.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by santa100 »

Alex123 wrote:But I wonder: At what point should I drop correct thinking and "contemplate in silence" ? Is it possible that after some point (which one?) thinking, even right thinking, is too coarse and just a hindrance for higher level?
Maybe when the right thinking becomes second nature. It's like learning how to play the piano. We have to keep practicing until we've developed muscle memory. Similarly, it's easy to contemplate anicca, asubha, anatta and stuff while doing sitting meditation. But the moment we encounter some hot woman, great wealth or fame, etc. we'd easily forget all those noble thoughts. Hence the reason we need to keep practicing..
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Sam Vara
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by Sam Vara »

I think the renunciation, harmlessness, and kindness refer to intention or resolve, rather than to the object. This intention isn't necessarily discursive.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... -sankappo/

I find that there always seems to be some element of intention present, even if it is merely the intention to continue being aware of a particular object. If discursive thought seems to be inappropriate, then I would check that my intentions were OK ("Is this grasping, harmful, or unkind to anyone?") and then drop it.
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Alex123
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by Alex123 »

santa100 wrote:Maybe when the right thinking becomes second nature.
Good idea. But that will take a while...
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kirk5a
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote:But I wonder: At what point should I drop correct thinking and "contemplate in silence" ? Is it possible that after some point (which one?) thinking, even right thinking, is too coarse and just a hindrance for higher level?
Is it possible that moving is a hindrance to being still?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by Alex123 »

kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:But I wonder: At what point should I drop correct thinking and "contemplate in silence" ? Is it possible that after some point (which one?) thinking, even right thinking, is too coarse and just a hindrance for higher level?
Is it possible that moving is a hindrance to being still?
Mind can "move", yet hindrances be still (restrained or eliminated).
It is possible to think without lobha/dosa/moha , and considering that it is not external objects that are causes of hindrances in&of themselves....

I still wonder if thinking is a minor form of restlessness, and words, after all, are concepts...

Sometimes I wonder if I need really deep concentration as I've talked in this post.
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kirk5a
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote:Mind can move, yet hindrances be still (restrained or eliminated).
It is possible to think without lobha/dosa/moha , and considering that it is not external objects that are causes of hindrances in&of themselves....
skill in moving requires skill in stopping
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
dhammarelax
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Re: When is right thinking too coarse and should be stoped?

Post by dhammarelax »

Alex123 wrote:It is over simplification that Dhamma is against all kinds of thinking. In various suttas there is distinction between wrong thinking (with sensuality, ill will, cruelty, etc) and right thinking (with renunciation, non-ill will, non cruelty). Many contemplations (such as a death contemplation, revulsion with whole world, drawbacks, etc) seem to involve discursive element. I myself like to read and/or think over themes of anicca, asubha, dukkha, anatta, 4 elements, nutriment, etc.

But I wonder: At what point should I drop correct thinking and "contemplate in silence" ? Is it possible that after some point (which one?) thinking, even right thinking, is too coarse and just a hindrance for higher level?



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any comments?

With best wishes,

Alex
From the 3rd Jhana and higher it is said that the practitioner reaches noble silence, thinking has been stilled, one way of keeping the thinking in check is to identify the thoughts that are mere repetitions, if you are having the same thoughts over and over again then it is a sign of attachment, dont forget that thinking is clinging, the link of dependent origination that comes after craving, if you are going to stop craving then clinging will stop as well.

Smile all the time
dhammarelax
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
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