Hello,
I have been meditating for about 1.5 years, and through this time the depth of my meditation has been fluctuating substantially, with some periods in which I can enter deep absorption after sitting for only a few seconds and other periods in which I don't get into absorption at all even after sitting for half an hour. At first the fluctuations were probably due to craving for the bliss of absorption, but more recently I can't detect any craving, just a natural diminishment in the depth of the meditation sessions. This happened just recently after about two weeks of incredibly easy establishment of absorption into what seemed to be the first and second jhanas, followed by the last week or so during which it has been difficult to simply steady the mind and establish basic absorption through an entire sitting session. I was wondering if other meditators have had similar experiences and if such fluctuations are natural, or if there is more likely something that needs to be changed about my method in order to re-establish the depth of past sessions.
Many thanks,
Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Sati1
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
- Goofaholix
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
I think if you're experiencing absorption semi-regularly after only 1.5 years of practice you should consider yourself very fortunate.Sati1 wrote:I was wondering if other meditators have had similar experiences and if such fluctuations are natural, or if there is more likely something that needs to be changed about my method in order to re-establish the depth of past sessions.
Investigation into the causes for the fluctuation and your reactivity to the fluctuation might yield valuable insight.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
I experience this too. Sometimes it seems that it takes 30 minutes of a 45 minute period just to settle down a bit.
Some things that i think are helpful to me are, meditating first thing in the morning before my mind and body have been stirred up by events, food, noise, people and caffine.
If you cant sit first thing in the A.M. sitting at the same time every day, a few hours after you have had food or caffine, might be good, it seems to be of help to me anyway.
20 minutes or so of yoga before practice also seems to help in this regard.
Also sometimes i can make a sort of conscious agreement with the chattering, grasping, progress seeking part of my mind to just take a break and leave me alone for a few minutes till im done with practice.
If i can just surrender to being where im at and remember that this is MY path no matter what happens, or how fast it happens, this is also seems to help.
Grasping of course is non productive, but so is aversion, so i just try to happily co-exist with whatever thoughts i do have, as suzuki said "let them come in the front door and go out the back door, dont invite them for tea".
Thats all i got. I have been sitting on and off since the 90's since 08 or so more regularly. What i lack in talent i try to make up for in regularity For me, effort, persistence and regularity are important, but just surrendering to the process is too imo.
EDIT: Just wanted to note that i do not do jhana practice, but another kind of concentration/absorption practice which results in (when im lucky )samadhi.
Some things that i think are helpful to me are, meditating first thing in the morning before my mind and body have been stirred up by events, food, noise, people and caffine.
If you cant sit first thing in the A.M. sitting at the same time every day, a few hours after you have had food or caffine, might be good, it seems to be of help to me anyway.
20 minutes or so of yoga before practice also seems to help in this regard.
Also sometimes i can make a sort of conscious agreement with the chattering, grasping, progress seeking part of my mind to just take a break and leave me alone for a few minutes till im done with practice.
If i can just surrender to being where im at and remember that this is MY path no matter what happens, or how fast it happens, this is also seems to help.
Grasping of course is non productive, but so is aversion, so i just try to happily co-exist with whatever thoughts i do have, as suzuki said "let them come in the front door and go out the back door, dont invite them for tea".
Thats all i got. I have been sitting on and off since the 90's since 08 or so more regularly. What i lack in talent i try to make up for in regularity For me, effort, persistence and regularity are important, but just surrendering to the process is too imo.
EDIT: Just wanted to note that i do not do jhana practice, but another kind of concentration/absorption practice which results in (when im lucky )samadhi.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Whenever questioned about Samadhi all that seems important to the teachers is that I'm aware of the changing nature.
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Dear Goofaholix, M0rl0ck and the pea,
Thank you for your encouraging words.
Goofaholix - I was not aware of how fortunate I am being able to enter into absorption. My impression from reading books about entering the jhanas (eg. Ayya Khema's "Who is my self?" and Shaila Catherine's "Focused and fearless"), and from the fact that there are "jhana retreats" (eg. Ajahn Brahm's) was that many people must be able to enter the jhanas by just following the instructions, and that absorption is normal for most practicioners.
M0rl0ck - it is good to know that someone with as much experience as you has also experienced similar fluctuations in depth of meditation. I agree that it's important to remind ourselves that this is our path no matter "how well" it seems to be proceeding at a given time. My own sessions are usually deeper in the evenings than in the mornings, probably because my job enables me to practice mindfulness throughout the day, which serves as a "warm-up" for the meditation that follows after work.
the pea - this is good to know. It seems then that the fluctuations themselves are a valuable object of insight.
With metta,
Thank you for your encouraging words.
Goofaholix - I was not aware of how fortunate I am being able to enter into absorption. My impression from reading books about entering the jhanas (eg. Ayya Khema's "Who is my self?" and Shaila Catherine's "Focused and fearless"), and from the fact that there are "jhana retreats" (eg. Ajahn Brahm's) was that many people must be able to enter the jhanas by just following the instructions, and that absorption is normal for most practicioners.
M0rl0ck - it is good to know that someone with as much experience as you has also experienced similar fluctuations in depth of meditation. I agree that it's important to remind ourselves that this is our path no matter "how well" it seems to be proceeding at a given time. My own sessions are usually deeper in the evenings than in the mornings, probably because my job enables me to practice mindfulness throughout the day, which serves as a "warm-up" for the meditation that follows after work.
the pea - this is good to know. It seems then that the fluctuations themselves are a valuable object of insight.
With metta,
Sati1
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
- martinfrank
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Dear Sat1
What you experience is what I experience. We could call it "normal" but should we?
Aren't we always in danger to consider meditation something like morning gymnastics or tooth cleaning? Something which makes us feel awake and balanced like a weekly Yoga lesson?
That is when we have lost the sense of urgency Lord Buddha is teaching.
I found that writing a List of Attachments and trying to deal with them string of glue by string of glue can help me to get aware of where I stand... and attack again!
May you attain your goal!
Martin
What you experience is what I experience. We could call it "normal" but should we?
Aren't we always in danger to consider meditation something like morning gymnastics or tooth cleaning? Something which makes us feel awake and balanced like a weekly Yoga lesson?
That is when we have lost the sense of urgency Lord Buddha is teaching.
I found that writing a List of Attachments and trying to deal with them string of glue by string of glue can help me to get aware of where I stand... and attack again!
May you attain your goal!
Martin
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Dear Martin,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's good to hear that others are also going through this. I agree that we should not grow complascent about our practice, but stay alert and mindful towards it every day. Does your list of attachments feature attachments related to meditation (eg feelings of concentration or bliss)? I was also wondering what you mean by "string of glue by string of glue" (sorry, English is not my first language!)?
With metta,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's good to hear that others are also going through this. I agree that we should not grow complascent about our practice, but stay alert and mindful towards it every day. Does your list of attachments feature attachments related to meditation (eg feelings of concentration or bliss)? I was also wondering what you mean by "string of glue by string of glue" (sorry, English is not my first language!)?
With metta,
Sati1
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
- martinfrank
- Posts: 272
- Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:55 am
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Dear Sati1Sati1 wrote:Dear Martin,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's good to hear that others are also going through this. I agree that we should not grow complascent about our practice, but stay alert and mindful towards it every day. Does your list of attachments feature attachments related to meditation (eg feelings of concentration or bliss)? I was also wondering what you mean by "string of glue by string of glue" (sorry, English is not my first language!)?
With metta,
Thank you for your kind reply. English is not my first language too. Maybe I didn't write clearly what I mean.
With the List of Attachments I didn't mean attachments related to meditation. I meant our real attachments... the things we are attached to (just think of all the things you would cry if they get stolen or broken), the people we are attached to, animals, places, foods, music... Make a list like you would make a list to prepare for a trip. Only that this time you write down all the things you cannot take with you. I find writing the list very painful.
Strings of Glue: I feel I am attached to many things and when I try to free myself from one thing I get attached to another thing. It is like a horror dream where everything is sticky and whatever I touch will stick to my hands, my body, my feet. Just imagine you'r in a room where everything you touch is covered with glue.
I think that we should not look at meditation as an exercise. Shouldn't we make Liberation a project?
I apologize if I am not clear enough.
I wish you success!
Martin
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
- Goofaholix
- Posts: 4029
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Sounds like you've been reading too much. I've done more than 30 retreats over 19 years and I haven't yet had the opportunity to do a jhana retreat, the vast majority of retreats out there are vipassana retreats where jhana is either sidelined or actively discouraged. Monastics don't tend to emphasise it when teaching lay people (Ajahn Brahm excepted) and I don't find it discussed much outside of the internet. Shaila Catherine is probably the first teacher I've come across that's convinced me it's accessible, all I need know is the right time and the right conditions.Sati1 wrote:Goofaholix - I was not aware of how fortunate I am being able to enter into absorption. My impression from reading books about entering the jhanas (eg. Ayya Khema's "Who is my self?" and Shaila Catherine's "Focused and fearless"), and from the fact that there are "jhana retreats" (eg. Ajahn Brahm's) was that many people must be able to enter the jhanas by just following the instructions, and that absorption is normal for most practicioners.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
How do you sideline or discourage jhanas? If these states arise observe, if not observe what is available.Goofaholix wrote: the vast majority of retreats out there are vipassana retreats where jhana is either sidelined or actively discouraged.
- Goofaholix
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Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
They don't generally arise spontaneously, the right causes and conditions need to be cultivated over a sustained period, inclining the mind towards changing objects and the development of insight doesn't usually do it.thepea wrote:How do you sideline or discourage jhanas? If these states arise observe, if not observe what is available.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Dear Martin, Goofaholix and thepea,
Thanks for the comments. Martin - that's interesting; I actually wrote down a similar list of attachments a few months ago. I find that it helps to not only write down the ones that are still there, but also those that have weakened or disappeared altogether due to The Path. I get your point about the strings of glue. I have noticed something similar when it comes to our self-identities.
Goofaholix - that's very useful information, since my assumption was that everybody is practicing for the jhanas, not only because of the books that I mentioned, but also because the jhanas are mentioned so often in the suttas.
It recently struck me how valuable these fluctations in meditation depth can be for insight, as for example for seeing the nonself nature of the mind, our attachment to pleasures, and the unreliable nature of our minds & bodies. Thus, what was frustrating at first might actually be very useful.
With metta,
Thanks for the comments. Martin - that's interesting; I actually wrote down a similar list of attachments a few months ago. I find that it helps to not only write down the ones that are still there, but also those that have weakened or disappeared altogether due to The Path. I get your point about the strings of glue. I have noticed something similar when it comes to our self-identities.
Goofaholix - that's very useful information, since my assumption was that everybody is practicing for the jhanas, not only because of the books that I mentioned, but also because the jhanas are mentioned so often in the suttas.
It recently struck me how valuable these fluctations in meditation depth can be for insight, as for example for seeing the nonself nature of the mind, our attachment to pleasures, and the unreliable nature of our minds & bodies. Thus, what was frustrating at first might actually be very useful.
With metta,
Sati1
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Why?Goofaholix wrote: inclining the mind towards changing objects and the development of insight doesn't usually do it.
- Goofaholix
- Posts: 4029
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Jhana usually requires a one-pointedness of mind, aiming and sustaining. If you let the mind contemplate changing phenomena it might be calm and spacious but not one-pointed.thepea wrote:Why?Goofaholix wrote: inclining the mind towards changing objects and the development of insight doesn't usually do it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Wildly fluctuating depth of samadhi
Is the breath not a suitable object?Goofaholix wrote: Jhana usually requires a one-pointedness of mind, aiming and sustaining. If you let the mind contemplate changing phenomena it might be calm and spacious but not one-pointed.