Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TheDhamma,

I think the distinction is... is it mindfulness of the Dhamma, or is it is mindfulness of mental objects?
Mental objects, but when one sees dhammas - "in the seen just the seen" - one sees Dhamma, Truth - anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticassaumpdada. But what is seeing is not doctrine or concepts, but the reality of the conditioned rise and fall of what is perceived.
The Dhamma is the framework, and the mental objects are the observable reality.

The dhamma (mental objects) are observed using the Dhamma.
Dhamma as teaching is a tool to guide the seeing towards "in the seen just the seen:, which is different from Dhamma as truth as a result of seeing clearly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Agreed.
Dhamma as teaching is a tool to guide the seeing towards "in the seen just the seen:, which is different from Dhamma as truth as a result of seeing clearly.
Good point. I wasn't thinking of Dhamma against that definition, but that is of course true. Even using the definition of Dhamma as the truth of the way things are, what I said here still applies.
If it did mean Dhamma (capital D), then all four frames of reference could justifiably be called Dhammanupassana, since they all involve using mindfulness based on the Dhamma... but they're not all called Dhammanupassana... only this one.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Reductor »

smokey wrote:I have been reading on how to contemplate: Five Hindrances, Six Sense Bases, Five Aggregates and Factors of enlightenment in that book. But it is not said in the book how to contemlate certain aspects of the teaching (Dhamma)?
So my question would be how does one contemplate Nibbana and how does one contemplate certain aspects of teaching (Dhamma)?
Well, I would discourage you from contemplating Nibbana as an object in itself. Just set that goal aside.

As for contemplating certain aspects of the teaching, in the sense of contemplating the teachings, I think you would have to have read widely first, then watch what is going on in your mind. When a mental object comes up you look at it and take it as a starting point into the teachings your recall. If it is one sensuality you would recall any teachings of sensuality and their drawbacks, and how those draw backs fit into the over all scheme of suffering. Here you would recall as much Dhamma as you can, and see what that Dhamma says about that mental object, and try and understand WHY it says it.

That is my only suggestion.

Back to Nibbana:

From: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
83. Another comparison

"The paths, fruitions, and nibbana are personal: You can truly see them only for yourself. Those who practice to that level will see them for themselves, will be clear about them for themselves, will totally end all their doubts about the Buddha's teaching. If you haven't reached that level, all you can do is keep on guessing. No matter how profoundly someone else may explain them to you, your knowledge about them will be guesswork. Whatever is guesswork will have to be uncertain.

"It's like the turtle and the fish. The turtle lives in two worlds: the world on land and the world in the water. As for the fish, it lives only in one world, the water. If it were to get on land, it would die.

"One day, when a turtle came down into the water, it told a group of fish about how much fun it was to be on land: The lights and colors were pretty, and there were none of the difficulties that came from being in the water.

"The fish were intrigued, and wanted to see what it was like on land, so they asked the turtle, 'Is it very deep on land?'

"The turtle answered, 'What would be deep about it? It's land.'

"The fish: 'Are there lots of waves on land?'

"The turtle: 'What would be wavy about it? It's land.'

"The fish: 'Is it murky with mud?'

"The turtle: 'What would be murky about it? It's land.'

"Notice the questions asked by the fish. They simply take their experience of water to ask the turtle, and the turtle can do nothing but say no.

"The mind of a run-of-the-mill person guessing about the paths, fruitions, and nibbana is no different from the fish."
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by smokey »

Has anyone learned about what I asked in this thread?
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Smokey,
smokey wrote:Has anyone learned about what I asked in this thread?
Which specific aspect... I see you've made a few posts, with a few questions... perhaps you could summarise "where you're at"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by smokey »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Smokey,
smokey wrote:Has anyone learned about what I asked in this thread?
Which specific aspect... I see you've made a few posts, with a few questions... perhaps you could summarise "where you're at"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
For an example how to contemplate emptiness, Nibbana etc.? What I mean is how to contemplate certain aspects of the teaching?
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Cittasanto »

http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2009/10/dh ... event.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is an FWBO blog sent to m by a Bhikkhu friend of mine regarding how Dhamma should be translated. the blog seams to be fairly well researched on the research done into the meaning.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Assaji »

Hi Smokey,
smokey wrote:I have a question. How to practice Mindfulness of Mental Objects (Dhammanupassana)?
Since mental qualities (dhamma) are instantly manifested in the qualities of inbreath and outbreath, an excellent starting point is noticing the attitude to inbreath and outbreath.

See the instructions in Patisambhidamagga:

"(i) By avoiding consciousness which runs after the past (breaths) and is attacked by distraction, (consciousness) is concentrated in one place.

(ii) By avoiding consciousness which looks forward to the future (breaths) and is attacked by wavering, (consciousness) is fixed (there).

(iii) By exerting slack consciousness attacked by indolence, one abandons indolence.

(iv) By restraining over-exerted consciousness attacked by agitation, one abandons agitation.

(v) By being clearly comprehending about consciousness which is attracted and attacked by greed, one abandons greed.

(vi) By being clearly comprehending about consciousness which is discontented and attacked by ill will, one abandons ill will."

http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_p ... c166300489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro
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Assaji
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Assaji »

Hi Smokey,
smokey wrote:For an example how to contemplate emptiness, Nibbana etc.? What I mean is how to contemplate certain aspects of the teaching?
IMHO, there's no need to overcomplicate 'dhammanupassana'. Essentially, that's contemplation of mental qualities, either skillful (kusala) or unskillful (akusala), as in discrimination of mental qualities (dhamma-vicaya):

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities... once it has arisen? There are mental qualities that are skillful & unskillful, blameworthy & blameless, gross & refined, siding with darkness & with light. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of analysis of qualities... once it has arisen."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another essential feature of 'dhammanupassana' is that one learns to track the dynamics of mental qualities, their prerequisites and causes. The Four Thruths of the Noble (ariya-sacca) and Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) provide a framework for such cause-and-effect research.

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by Pulsar »

Ben wrote
Within the tradition that I practice, its not a practice for beginners. Dhammanupassana, is observation of the mental contents as they are. In my experience, Dhammanupassana, arises spontaneously when I have a certain depth of samadhi and when my mind has been prepared (for want of a better word) by my main technique, vedananupassana.
Metta


Ben
What is the tradition within which you practice? It is fascinating that this tradition teaches Dhammanupassana in this manner. I have seriously begun to think, that Dhammanupassana can only be engaged in, once one has successfully completed, Kaya, Vedana, and Cittanupassana.
At the end of the first three contemplations, mind is no more impacted by Sanna creating nama-rupa. Satipathana is basically investigating Dependent origination, and eliminating contact, sensation and creation of mind moments (nama-rupa) by the end of 3rd Reference.
To me it appears to be very similar to the state of 4th jhana, simply a different approach.
According to your tradition how does this sound? Pl tell me. I have no doubt regarding
this.
Be well, I so appreciate your comment.
:candle:
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by one_awakening »

Reductor wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:24 am When a mental object comes up you look at it and take it as a starting point into the teachings your recall. If it is one sensuality you would recall any teachings of sensuality and their drawbacks, and how those draw backs fit into the over all scheme of suffering. Here you would recall as much Dhamma as you can, and see what that Dhamma says about that mental object, and try and understand WHY it says it.

This is the way I have always practised the fourth foundation
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by one_awakening »

Isn't it just keep the Buddha's teachings in mind while observing?
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Re: Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana)

Post by constellation »

VIPASSANĀ (DHAMMAS CONTEMPLATION ― THE FIVE CLINGING-AGGREGATES)

Hence, in the ‘Mahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna Sutta’, The Buddha describes such insight knowledge under ‘Dhammas Contemplation’: (*)

(*) D.II.9 (§383) ‘Mahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna∙Suttaṃ’ (‘The Great Mindfulness-Foundation Sutta’)

Again and further, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating dhammas in dhammas in relation to the five clinging-aggregates (pañcasu upādāna∙kkhandhesu).

And how then, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu contemplate dhammas in dhammas in relation to the five clinging-aggregates?

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands:

‘[1] Such is materiality (rūpaṃ), such materiality’s origination (iti rūpassa samudayo), such materiality’s extinction (iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo);
‘[2] such is feeling (iti vedanā), such feeling’s origination (iti vedanāya samudayo), such feeling’s extinction (iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo);
‘[3] such is perception (iti saññā), such perception’s origination (iti saññāya samudayo), such perception’s extinction (iti saññāya atthaṅgamo);
‘[4] such are formations (iti saṅkhārā), such formations’ origination (iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo), such formations’ extinction (iti saṅkhārānaṃ atthaṅgamo);
‘[5] such is consciousness (iti viññāṇa), such consciousness’s origination (iti viññā∙ṇassa samudayo), such consciousness’s extinction (iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo).’

- Thus he abides contemplating dhammas in dhammas internally (ajjhattaṃ),
_ or he abides contemplating dhammas in dhammas externally (bahiddhā),
_ or he abides contemplating dhammas in dhammas internally and externally (ajjhatta∙bahiddhā).

- He abides contemplating originating phenomena (samudaya∙dhammā) in dhammas;
_ or he abides contemplating perishing phenomena (vaya∙dhammā) in dhammas;
_ or he abides contemplating originating&perishing (samudaya∙vaya∙dhammā) phenomena in dhammas.

Or mindfulness that ‘there are dhammas’ is founded just sufficient for knowledge, sufficient for mindfulness.

And he abides independent, and does not cling to anything in the world.

Thus then, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating dhammas in dhammas in relation to the five clinging-aggregates.
________
The bhikkhu’s contemplating dhammas in dhammas internally and externally corresponds to his contemplating the five aggregates of past, future, and present, internal and external, gross and subtle, inferior and superior, far or near, which corresponds to his understanding, such is materiality, such is feeling, such is perception, such are formations, and such is consciousness. Such understanding corresponds to his penetrating the Noble Truth of Suffering. When The Buddha afterwards says the bhikkhu contemplates originating and perishing phenomena in dhammas, again it corresponds to the bhikkhu’s contemplating the five aggregates’ origination and extinction.

FOUR FOUNDATIONS = FIVE AGGREGATES, ETC . = THE ALL

What then are the four foundations of mindfulness? They are mindfulness founded in four objects of contemplation (anupassanā): (*) the body (kāya), feelings (vedanā), consciousness (citta), dhammas (dhamma).

(*) In S.V.IV.ii.1 ‘Paṭilābha∙Suttaṃ’ (‘The Acquisition Sutta’)(Myanmarese ref.―S.3.175), the Buddha explains: ‘The mindfulness (satiṃ), bhikkhus, one acquires (satiṃ paṭilabhati) in relation (ārabbha) to the four mindfulness foundations (cattāro satipaṭṭhāne): this is called, bhikkhus, the mindfulness faculty (sat∙indriyaṃ).’ And in PsM.III.viii.35 ‘Sati∙Paṭṭhāna∙Kathā’ (‘Discussion of Mindfulness-Foundation’), Ven. Sāriputta explains, for example, in connection with body-contemplation: ‘The body is the foundation (kāyo upaṭṭhānaṃ), not the mindfulness (no sati); the mindfulness is the foundation as well as the mindfulness (sati upaṭṭhānañca∙eva sati ca). With that mindfulness, with that knowledge (ñāṇena), he contemplates that body.’

The four foundations of mindfulness correspond to the vipassanā range, which is the five aggregates: (*)

(*) FOUR CONTEMPLATIONS ~ FIVE AGGREGATES: the commentary to the ‘Mahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna' sutta (§382) explains that The Buddha discusses body contemplation (kāy∙ānupassanā) for apprehension of only the materiality aggregate (rūpa∙kkhandha∙pariggah∙ova); He discusses feeling contemplation (vedan∙ānupassanā) for apprehension of only the feeling aggregate (vedanā∙kkhandha∙pariggah∙ova); He discusses consciousness contemplation (citt∙ānupassanā) for the apprehension of only the consciousness aggregate (viññāṇa∙kkhandha∙pariggah∙ova). In order therefore to discuss also the apprehension of the perception- and formations aggregate (saññā∙saṅkhāra∙kkhandha∙pariggaham∙pi), He then discusses dhammas contemplation (dhamm∙ānupassanā) (as those two aggregates are discussed under contemplation of the hindrances and enlightenment factors). Contemplation of all five aggregates, however, He gives under contemplation of the aggregates/bases/Truths. Hence, the commentary (§382) also explains that while body contemplation is purely for the apprehension of the material (suddha∙rūpa∙pariggaho), and feelings- and consciousness contemplation are purely for apprehension of the immaterial (suddha∙arūpa∙pariggaho), dhammas contemplation is for apprehension of materiality and mentality mixed (rūp∙ārūpa∙missaka∙pariggahaṃ).

1) Body contemplation corresponds to contemplation of the materiality aggregate.
2) Feelings contemplation corresponds to contemplation of the feeling aggregate.
3) Consciousness contemplation corresponds to contemplation of the consciousness aggregate.
4) Dhammas contemplation in relation to the five hindrances and seven enlightenment factors corresponds to contemplation of the perception aggregate and formations aggregate; dhammas contemplation in relation to the five aggregates, twelve bases, and four Noble Truths, corresponds then to contemplation of all five aggregates.

It is then not very difficult to understand that the only way to fully understand the five aggregates, to abandon their origin, to realize their cessation, and to develop the practice leading to their cessation, is to practise the four foundations of mindfulness. Vice-versa, to practise the four foundations of mindfulness means to fully understand the five aggregates, to abandon their origin, to realize their cessation, and to develop the practice leading to their cessation. The vipassanā range is all five aggregates, all twelve bases, both body and consciousness, and all four foundations of mindfulness.

THE ONLY WAY (VIPASSANĀ ― BODY CONTEMPLATION)


Different types of construction calmness/coolness area awareness (viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4700) (Samatha v. vipassana?)


The Buddha says that to make a complete end of suffering (sammā dukkhass∙antaṃ), one needs to penetrate each of the four Noble Truths with one’s own direct, practical knowledge. That is:

1) One needs fully to know and penetrate materiality, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness of past, future, and present, internal and external, gross and subtle, inferior and superior, far and near. This is the same as to say one needs to know and penetrate ultimate materiality and ultimate mentality.

2) One needs to penetrate and abandon the origin of materiality, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness of past, future, and present, internal and external, gross and subtle, inferior and superior, far and near. This is the same as to say one needs to penetrate and abandon dependent origination in regular order.

3) One needs to penetrate and realize the cessation of materiality, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness of past, future, and present, internal and external, gross and subtle, inferior and superior, far and near. This is the same as to say one needs to penetrate and realize dependent origination in negative order.

4) One needs to develop and penetrate the practice leading to the cessation of materiality, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness of past, future, and present, internal and external, gross and subtle, inferior and superior, far and near. This is the same as to say one needs to develop and penetrate samatha and vipassanā.

In the same way, according to those quotations and discussions, The Buddha says that the destruction of suffering (dukkha∙kkhaya) is impossible unless one has directly known, fully known, and abandoned the five aggregates; unless one has directly known, fully known, and abandoned the six internal and external bases; unless one has directly known, fully known, and abandoned the all. And He says the taints’ destruction (āsavānaṃ khayaṃ) requires that one knows and sees all five aggregates and their origination and extinction. By extension, according to those quotations and discussions, this means the Deathless is realized (Amataṃ sacchikataṃ hoti) only if one has contemplated all four foundations of mindfulness.

In that case, there is really no need for us again to explain that when The Buddha in the ‘Mahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna’ sutta explains vipassanā, He is clearly explaining vipassanā with regard to all five aggregates, both materiality and mentality.

THE FOUR FOUNDATIONS OF MINDFULNESS

Let us quote it again:

D.II.372

The only way, bhikkhus, is this path, for beings' purification, for sorrow and lamentation's overcoming, for pain and displeasure's disappearance, for the true way's attainment, for Nibbāna's realization: that is, the four foundations of mindfulness.

Afterwards, The Buddha gives an outline of the four foundations of mindfulness:

D.II.373

What are the four?
[1] Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, discerning, mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure for the world.
[2] He abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, discerning, mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure for the world.
[3] He abides contemplating consciousness as consciousness, ardent, discerning, mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure for the world.
[4] He abides contemplating dhammas as dhammas, (*) ardent, discerning, mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure for the world.

(*) dhammas: The Buddha uses this word in many ways. For example, as the sixth external base, it means all objects cognized by the mind apart from the objects cognized by the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Here, it refers to various objects of contemplation, including objects that He has already mentioned under the first three foundations of mindfulness. Hence, to avoid misunderstanding, the term is here left untranslated.

In each case, The Buddha explains the bhikkhu's practice as contemplation that is ardent, discerning and mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure for the world. After this introduction, The Buddha then explains each contemplation. Body-contemplation is fourteen contemplations, feelings-contemplation is one, consciousness-contemplation is one, and dhammas-contemplation is five contemplations: all in all twenty-one contemplations.

In S.V.III.v.2 'Samudaya·Suttaṁ' ('The Origin Sutta'), The Buddha explains the origin of each of the four foundations of mindfulness: the origin of the body is nutriment (āhāra); of feelings is contact (phassa); of consciousness (citta) is mentality-materiality (nāma·rūpa) (see dependent origination); and the origin of dhammas is attention (manasikāra). And in S.III.I.vii.9 'Rādha·Suttaṁ' ('The Rādha·Sutta'), The Buddha explains that 'this body with consciousness' and all 'external signs' is the five aggregates of past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near.


Sixteen Knowledges

Samudayadhammanupassi

The knowledge of arising and passing away of formations consists of two forms of knowledge. The first is seeing the momentary arising and passing away of formations (khaṇato) and the second is to see the causal arising and ceasing of formations (paccayato). Each of these again is also divided into three parts:

Vayadhammanupassi

After the meditator is able to discern both the momentary arising of dhammas and the causal arising of dhammas he then contemplates again and again the passing away of dhammas and the cause of the passing away of dhammas (vayadhammanupassi).

Samudayavayadhammanupassi

After the meditator is able to discern both the momentary cessation of dhammas and the causal cessation of dhammas he then contemplates again and again both the arising and passing away of dhammas together. This involves discerning both the momentary arising and momentary passing away of dhammas and the causal arising and causal passing away of dhammas (samudayavayadhammanupassi).


For example: THE FOURTH SET OF FOUR — ('The Mindfulness-of-Breathing Sutta') — Here, mindfulness of breathing fulfills dhammas contemplation (dhamm·ānupassanā), the fourth foundation of mindfulness. Here, it is only vipassanā meditation.

Not Just Mindfulness Of Not Just Mental Objects (dhamm·ānupassanā) (viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1923) (Mindfulness Of Mental Objects (dhammanupassana))
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