Known by knowledge, known by inference

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Known by knowledge, known by inference

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:09 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Known by knowledge, known by inference

Postby Individual » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:39 am

I think the idea of a "true nature" reflects a materialist, empiricist, and realist bias. Why approach meditation with such preconceptions?

Where do you objectively draw the line between "specific" and "general" characteristics?

And also, why should objects of empiricism yield more detailed information than objects of the intellect? I would say that there is no clear distinction between objects of experience and objects of inference, since empirical observation is dependent on some degree of conceptualization or rationalization (usually sub-conscious) while objects of the intellect are dependent on experience, no meaningful statement can be made without reference to real things.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Known by knowledge, known by inference

Postby nathan » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:19 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Known by knowledge, known by inference

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:07 pm

general chars are known by inference because we cannot discern all (for example) vayo dathu- near far, past future gross subtle. So we only know that everything is anicca by inference- this is sammasana nana (the 3rd vipassana nana) when what is seen experientially is understood to be true to for everything which ever existed. Similarly we can only know what is going on for another person inferentially, by seeing how things happen within us (there is suttic support for this -the 'internal external' refrain in the satipatthana)

specific chars can be known because we can experience an object in our mindfulness. this would be nama-rupa paricceda nana (knowledge of discerning mentality and materiality)

specific chars lead to understanding of general chars in a cause and effect manner- so all we have to do is to continue the practice correctly and the vipassana nanas will follow.

Thank you far asking that question. It has illuminated for me in yet another way, the unfoliding of vipassana.

with metta
With Metta

& Upekkha

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