What is shame based on knowledge of cause and effect?

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What is shame based on knowledge of cause and effect?

Postby Uilium » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:46 am

This is a shame based on knowledge of cause and effect, rather than emotional guilt So it's good shame? Ajahn Chah was talking about it.
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Re: What is shame based on knowledge of cause and effect?

Postby Nyorai » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:14 am

Emotional guilt is ignorantly causing ill effect towards others and themselves, not knowing it, and developing bad karmic for themselves and others. And it is not truly loving. knowledge of cause and effect is in true understanding the underlying principle of humanity and thus developing on loving metta :thumbsup:
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Re: What is shame based on knowledge of cause and effect?

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:56 am

Uilium wrote:This is a shame based on knowledge of cause and effect, rather than emotional guilt So it's good shame? Ajahn Chah was talking about it.


Could you give a reference for this? It might help people if they saw the context.
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Re: What is shame based on knowledge of cause and effect?

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:15 am

Ah, is it this one?
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/On_Meditation1.php#foot677

Whatever we do we take care. A sense of shame4 will arise. We will feel ashamed about the things we do which aren't correct. As shame increases, our collectedness will increase as well. When collectedness increases, heedlessness will disappear. Even if we don't sit in meditation, these factors will be present in the mind.


The footnote is

This is a shame based on knowledge of cause and effect, rather than emotional guilt.


The footnote is probably by the translator, but I think it means something like a wholesome sense of shame or conscience (hiri in Pali) which we can use to protect ourselves. We develop a sense of what consequences our actions will have when we are in the collected state, and thus we restrain ourselves from doing wrong. As it is based on consequences, it is "based on cause and effect". This is contrasted with the idea of "emotional guilt" - just beating ourselves up for things we did in the past - which is fruitless.

Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a nice little article on hiri and its counterpart, ottappa

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_23.html

which you might find helpful.
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