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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:53 pm
by Alex123
Bhante,

Thank you for your reply,
Dhammanando wrote:If one is a worldling there is no 'how' about it. One cannot not conceive, nor is not conceiving one’s task. Likewise if one is an arahant there is no 'how' about it: having cut off the fetter of māna the arahant does not have to deliberately refrain from conceiving any more than he needs to deliberately abstain from immoral conduct.

Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?


With best wishes,

Alex

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:53 pm
by Mr Man
SarathW wrote:Mr Man
I think that you mean the Dhayna infinity of space. In that state you are thinking about the space.
Hi SarathW,
I guess it would depend on what we understood "think" to be. From the OP I had understood thought to be mental dialogue.

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:02 pm
by Cittasanto
Dhammanando wrote:A worldling who believes that the abandoning of māna consists in the deliberate avoidance of thinking and conceiving will be going about things the wrong way. He will probably just end up frustrated, unless he’s a jhāna-wallah and very strongly committed to deliberate abstention from thinking, in which case he may arrive at the impercipient attainment and end up spending a few kalpas in the Brahmā realms as an anthropomorphic block of stone.
Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:50 am
by Dhammanando
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:27 am
by Alex123
Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
So one practices/develops N8P?

What is wrong with practicing to avoid thinking with greed, anger and delusion? Isn't that part of N8P? Doesn't it help N8P?


With best wishes,

Alex

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:08 am
by Dhammanando
Alex123 wrote:What is wrong with practicing to avoid thinking with greed, anger and delusion?
Nothing, but that's rather different from the non-thinking tout court that you were advocating earlier.

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:14 am
by Dhammanando
Cittasanto wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:A worldling who believes that the abandoning of māna consists in the deliberate avoidance of thinking and conceiving will be going about things the wrong way. He will probably just end up frustrated, unless he’s a jhāna-wallah and very strongly committed to deliberate abstention from thinking, in which case he may arrive at the impercipient attainment and end up spending a few kalpas in the Brahmā realms as an anthropomorphic block of stone.
Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
I understand that sutta to be about the overcoming of the five hindrances in samatha-bhāvanā. Both a Buddhist jhāna-wallah and a non-Buddhist yogi striving to become a block of stone via the impercipient attainment (asaññā-samāpatti) would of course need to do this, for the latter attainment, though not at all approved in Buddhist tradition, does require jhānic proficiency as its foundation.

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:22 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Dhammanando wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
:bow:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:21 am
by Cittasanto
Dhammanando wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
I understand that sutta to be about the overcoming of the five hindrances in samatha-bhāvanā. Both a Buddhist jhāna-wallah and a non-Buddhist yogi striving to become a block of stone via the impercipient attainment (asaññā-samāpatti) would of course need to do this, for the latter attainment, though not at all approved in Buddhist tradition, does require jhānic proficiency as its foundation.
:anjali:
Thank-you Ajahn,
I feel I was unclear by choosing the wrong post you made to quote. I was thinking more about this when the Sutta came to mind
Dhammanando wrote:Conceiving (maññati, e.g., "he conceives earth...") is what the worldling does do, what the sekha ought not to do, and what the asekha (arahant) does not do.
I Although applying it to more daily life when we may have thoughts and ideas surrounding something increasing (proliferation) instead of dealing with facts of a situation.
However thing the link I made was incorrect.

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:18 pm
by jackson
Pardon my ignorance and slight derailment of the topic, but could someone explain what a Jhana-Wallah is for those of us who don't know the term? I tried looking it up but had no success.
Thanks :anjali:

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:42 pm
by imagemarie
Hi Jackson


Well, some people claim that the term is an oxymoron (Ajahn Brahm?). Because to be able to attain the state of jhana, requires some degree of letting go of self proliferating. That jhana is a kind of free-falling which once initiated, leaves little to attach to. Piti, sukkha etc. are seen to arise and pass.

Others claim that the "bliss states", and beyond, can provide a false haven, or temporary refuge where the notional self can choose to hang out.
Hence "jhana wallah".

I think probably the only resolution to this argument is to test it.

Saying that, I did find this book to be worthwhile.. :tongue:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Experience- ... 999&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:27 pm
by nibbuti
imagemarie wrote:Well, some people claim that the term is an oxymoron (Ajahn Brahm?). Because to be able to attain the state of jhana, requires some degree of letting go of self proliferating. That jhana is a kind of free-falling which once initiated, leaves little to attach to. Piti, sukkha etc. are seen to arise and pass.

Others claim that the "bliss states", and beyond, can provide a false haven, or temporary refuge where the notional self can choose to hang out.
Hence "jhana wallah".

Only what is based on craving (for jhana), rather than on letting go, can provide a false haven.

So it should really be 'nose tip' wallah or craving wallah.

:anjali:

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:21 pm
by kirk5a
Wakeful non-thinking is not stone-like. Not remotely. On the contrary, it allows for the development of energy, a factor of awakening, rather than its dispersal down the endless rabbit-warrens of the mind. If it was stone-like, the Buddha wouldn't have advocated it. Which he did, as I have pointed out. To further this point:
He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trivial thoughts, subtle thoughts,
Mental jerkings that follow one along:
Not understanding these mental thoughts,
One runs back and forth with wandering mind.

But having known these mental thoughts,
The ardent and mindful one restrains them.
An awakened one has entirely abandoned them,
These mental jerkings that follow one along.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For one who has mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within oneself, annoying external thoughts & inclinations don't exist.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:50 pm
by Dhammanando
jackson wrote:Pardon my ignorance and slight derailment of the topic, but could someone explain what a Jhana-Wallah is for those of us who don't know the term? I tried looking it up but had no success.
Thanks :anjali:
In about the mid-80's the term "vipassanā-wallah" came into use as either a jocular term for persons committed to one or another of the modern systems of dry insight meditation or a pejorative term for persons fanatical about the same. I don't know who came up with the term, but I first heard it myself from the Aussie Patrick Kearney when he was a monk in Thailand.

In more recent years, with the growth of interest in absorption practice, "jhāna-wallah" has come into use to denote those with a similar dedication to samatha-bhāvanā.

Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:18 pm
by Mr Man
kirk5a wrote:Wakeful non-thinking is not stone-like. Not remotely. On the contrary, it allows for the development of energy, a factor of awakening, rather than its dispersal down the endless rabbit-warrens of the mind.
Well said. I think it is certainly worth exploring.