Not-Thinking as a practice

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Alex123
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Alex123 »

Bhante,

Thank you for your reply,
Dhammanando wrote:If one is a worldling there is no 'how' about it. One cannot not conceive, nor is not conceiving one’s task. Likewise if one is an arahant there is no 'how' about it: having cut off the fetter of māna the arahant does not have to deliberately refrain from conceiving any more than he needs to deliberately abstain from immoral conduct.

Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?


With best wishes,

Alex
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Mr Man
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

SarathW wrote:Mr Man
I think that you mean the Dhayna infinity of space. In that state you are thinking about the space.
Hi SarathW,
I guess it would depend on what we understood "think" to be. From the OP I had understood thought to be mental dialogue.
Last edited by Mr Man on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:A worldling who believes that the abandoning of māna consists in the deliberate avoidance of thinking and conceiving will be going about things the wrong way. He will probably just end up frustrated, unless he’s a jhāna-wallah and very strongly committed to deliberate abstention from thinking, in which case he may arrive at the impercipient attainment and end up spending a few kalpas in the Brahmā realms as an anthropomorphic block of stone.
Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Dhammanando
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Alex123
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Alex123 »

Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
So one practices/develops N8P?

What is wrong with practicing to avoid thinking with greed, anger and delusion? Isn't that part of N8P? Doesn't it help N8P?


With best wishes,

Alex
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Dhammanando
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

Alex123 wrote:What is wrong with practicing to avoid thinking with greed, anger and delusion?
Nothing, but that's rather different from the non-thinking tout court that you were advocating earlier.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Dhammanando
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

Cittasanto wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:A worldling who believes that the abandoning of māna consists in the deliberate avoidance of thinking and conceiving will be going about things the wrong way. He will probably just end up frustrated, unless he’s a jhāna-wallah and very strongly committed to deliberate abstention from thinking, in which case he may arrive at the impercipient attainment and end up spending a few kalpas in the Brahmā realms as an anthropomorphic block of stone.
Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
I understand that sutta to be about the overcoming of the five hindrances in samatha-bhāvanā. Both a Buddhist jhāna-wallah and a non-Buddhist yogi striving to become a block of stone via the impercipient attainment (asaññā-samāpatti) would of course need to do this, for the latter attainment, though not at all approved in Buddhist tradition, does require jhānic proficiency as its foundation.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dhammanando wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Then "how" do you suggest one becomes an Aryan?
By arriving at a level of insight knowledge that is adequate to cut off the first three fetters. This is done by developing and making much of the Eightfold Path.
:bow:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Cittasanto
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: Hi Ajahn,
Could MN20 The Vitakkasanthana Sutta be dealling with this also?
I understand that sutta to be about the overcoming of the five hindrances in samatha-bhāvanā. Both a Buddhist jhāna-wallah and a non-Buddhist yogi striving to become a block of stone via the impercipient attainment (asaññā-samāpatti) would of course need to do this, for the latter attainment, though not at all approved in Buddhist tradition, does require jhānic proficiency as its foundation.
:anjali:
Thank-you Ajahn,
I feel I was unclear by choosing the wrong post you made to quote. I was thinking more about this when the Sutta came to mind
Dhammanando wrote:Conceiving (maññati, e.g., "he conceives earth...") is what the worldling does do, what the sekha ought not to do, and what the asekha (arahant) does not do.
I Although applying it to more daily life when we may have thoughts and ideas surrounding something increasing (proliferation) instead of dealing with facts of a situation.
However thing the link I made was incorrect.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
jackson
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by jackson »

Pardon my ignorance and slight derailment of the topic, but could someone explain what a Jhana-Wallah is for those of us who don't know the term? I tried looking it up but had no success.
Thanks :anjali:
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
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imagemarie
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by imagemarie »

Hi Jackson


Well, some people claim that the term is an oxymoron (Ajahn Brahm?). Because to be able to attain the state of jhana, requires some degree of letting go of self proliferating. That jhana is a kind of free-falling which once initiated, leaves little to attach to. Piti, sukkha etc. are seen to arise and pass.

Others claim that the "bliss states", and beyond, can provide a false haven, or temporary refuge where the notional self can choose to hang out.
Hence "jhana wallah".

I think probably the only resolution to this argument is to test it.

Saying that, I did find this book to be worthwhile.. :tongue:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Experience- ... 999&sr=8-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
nibbuti
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by nibbuti »

imagemarie wrote:Well, some people claim that the term is an oxymoron (Ajahn Brahm?). Because to be able to attain the state of jhana, requires some degree of letting go of self proliferating. That jhana is a kind of free-falling which once initiated, leaves little to attach to. Piti, sukkha etc. are seen to arise and pass.

Others claim that the "bliss states", and beyond, can provide a false haven, or temporary refuge where the notional self can choose to hang out.
Hence "jhana wallah".

Only what is based on craving (for jhana), rather than on letting go, can provide a false haven.

So it should really be 'nose tip' wallah or craving wallah.

:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by kirk5a »

Wakeful non-thinking is not stone-like. Not remotely. On the contrary, it allows for the development of energy, a factor of awakening, rather than its dispersal down the endless rabbit-warrens of the mind. If it was stone-like, the Buddha wouldn't have advocated it. Which he did, as I have pointed out. To further this point:
He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Trivial thoughts, subtle thoughts,
Mental jerkings that follow one along:
Not understanding these mental thoughts,
One runs back and forth with wandering mind.

But having known these mental thoughts,
The ardent and mindful one restrains them.
An awakened one has entirely abandoned them,
These mental jerkings that follow one along.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For one who has mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within oneself, annoying external thoughts & inclinations don't exist.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Dhammanando
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Dhammanando »

jackson wrote:Pardon my ignorance and slight derailment of the topic, but could someone explain what a Jhana-Wallah is for those of us who don't know the term? I tried looking it up but had no success.
Thanks :anjali:
In about the mid-80's the term "vipassanā-wallah" came into use as either a jocular term for persons committed to one or another of the modern systems of dry insight meditation or a pejorative term for persons fanatical about the same. I don't know who came up with the term, but I first heard it myself from the Aussie Patrick Kearney when he was a monk in Thailand.

In more recent years, with the growth of interest in absorption practice, "jhāna-wallah" has come into use to denote those with a similar dedication to samatha-bhāvanā.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Mr Man
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Re: Not-Thinking as a practice

Post by Mr Man »

kirk5a wrote:Wakeful non-thinking is not stone-like. Not remotely. On the contrary, it allows for the development of energy, a factor of awakening, rather than its dispersal down the endless rabbit-warrens of the mind.
Well said. I think it is certainly worth exploring.
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