Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As I have said, a book cannot get to know you and your oddities, it cannot hear your tone of voice, it cannot ask you a question that might unlock a problem area. Pretty much, you are left with being your own imperfections as you try to toddle down the path of your own interptretations.
And what prevents that teacher himself from making mistakes when dealing with you?
You learn.
What prevents the teacher from dealing in a standard way with you (something you can read from the books)? Teachers do not have the Buddha's capability of reading minds and mistakes are possible. Even Ven, Sariputta a Chief Disciple and Arahant could misjudge a person in front of him.
That puts you in a really hard place. Cannot trust teachers to be perfect. Being unawakened, driven by delusion and such stuff, cannot trust your own interptretations not to be seriously affected by such defilements. Cannot trust translations by unawakened, imperfect people to be a guide. And even poor Sariputta, an arahant himself, screwed up. Heavens to betsy; it is a hard world out there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

Buddha has left His teaching to be used as a guide. I do not believe that suttas are written so poorly that they require lots of interpretation for practice. I think that the Buddha was the Best teacher and His instructions are written in the best form to be used individually.

Teachers can make mistakes and one shouldn't, imho, idealize them. Also many books written by them are also available, so it is not that one has to use one's own interpretation of the suttas. I believe that people should eventually become independent when it comes to Dhamma and be able to find answers for themselves rather than to rely on someone.

tiltbillings wrote:it is a hard world out there.
Yes, it is hard world out there. This is why Dukkha is the 1st Noble Truth.

When the Buddha has died, He has left His teaching as the Teacher. He didn't appoint someone (like Ananda) to be The Teacher or as a successor. The Sutta and Vinaya that Buddha gave is the Teacher.



"Master Ananda, is there any one monk appointed by Master Gotama [with the words], 'He will be your arbitrator after I am gone,' to whom you now turn?"

"No, brahman. There isn't any one monk appointed by the Blessed One — the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened — [with the words] 'He will be your arbitrator after I am gone,' to whom we now turn."

"Then is there any one monk authorized by the Sangha and appointed by a large body of elder monks [with the words], 'He will be our arbitrator after the Blessed One is gone,' to whom you now turn?"

"No, brahman. There isn't any one monk authorized by the Sangha and appointed by a large body of elder monks [with the words] 'He will be our arbitrator after the Blessed One is gone,' to whom we now turn."

"Being thus without an arbitrator, Master Ananda, what is the reason for your concord?"

"It's not the case, brahman, that we're without an arbitrator. We have an arbitrator. The Dhamma is our arbitrator."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:Buddha has left His teaching to be used as a guide. I do not believe that suttas are written so poorly that they require lots of interpretation for practice. I think that the Buddha was the Best teacher and His instructions are written in the best form to be used individually.
But since you do not read Pali, you must rely on imperfect translations, and it is obvious just from this forum itself how wildly divergent interpretations of the same text can be. But even if the translations were perfect, you, as unawakened individual, driven by delusion, want, fears, and other such goodies, must interpret them.
Teachers can make mistakes and one shouldn't, imho, idealize them.
No one here is idealizing teachers.
Also many books written by them are also available, so it is not that one has to use one's own interpretation of the suttas. I believe that people should eventually become independent when it comes to Dhamma and be able to find answers for themselves rather than to rely on someone.
Books have their limitations, and as for becoming independent of relying on others, sure; however . . . .

Do you actually have something new to say here, or are you going to keep going in circles? octathlon is getting dizzy from this round-and-round business.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nicro
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Nicro »

Alex, why are you so opposed to a teacher? You are willing to read their book but not study with them?
octathlon wrote:
bodom wrote: Having a "teacher" is ideal but is not an absolute requirement. Having good experienced friends to discuss your practice with such as here at Dhamma Wheel is a blessing. Please dont give up your sitting practice because you dont have access to a teacher. Mindfulness of breathing can be undertaken by anyone and will produce good results without a teacher sitting over you watching every breath.
Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

The next consideration is what they call an "acariya (teacher, master)". But in truth, even in the old training systems, they did not talk much about "acariya." They called such a person a "good friend (kalyana-mitta)." To say "friend" - an advisor who can help us with certain things - is correct. We should not forget, however, principle that no one can help someone else directly. Yet nowadays, everyone wants to have a teacher to supervise them! A good friend is someone who has extensive personal experience and knowledge about the meditation practice or whatever else it is that we are striving to do. Although he is able to answer questions and explain some difficulties, it is not necessary for him to sit over us and supervise every breath. A good friend who will answer questions and help us work through certain obstacles is more than enough. To have such a kalyana-mitta is one more thing to arrange.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/books ... athing.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Thanks for this answer, Bodom. It sounds encouraging, but I don't feel I made any progress with my mindfulness of breathing even after several months of almost-daily practice. I don't necessarily blame it on not having a teacher, though. I may be doing something wrong but as you say, it's pretty simple! It is more likely that I would need to increase session times or have patience and continue steadfastly, but I have just burned out on it I guess. It's funny, I actually did a lot better when I first started and it gradually went downhill from there.

What kind of meditation were you doing? Anapanasati? Whose method? I think progress can be made with any good method. You just gotta be consistent. In my own opinion, if you meditate at least an hour a day you won't go backwards and if you do at least 2 hours a day you will go forwards.
octathlon wrote:
What about going to a teacher of a different school and getting confused vs. meditating on your own vs. not at all?
What is the local community of? If its Zen there seems to me to be a lot of similarities of Zazen to Vipasana, especially Bhante G's method. You could even go to a group session early and ask the leader if he is OK with you sitting with them but doing your own style of meditation.
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Ben
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Ben »

Sorry for the delay, Octathlon,
octathlon wrote: Would you consider the people on this forum to meet that requirement? I know no other Buddhist practitioners in my town, though I'm sure there must be some.
Yes, I can give you some recommendations of people on this forum that I believe would be excellent buddies (if they are willing - and I am sure they will be). You are welcome to contact me via PM.
kind regards,

Ben
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Goofaholix
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Goofaholix »

Alex123 wrote:I believe that people should eventually become independent when it comes to Dhamma and be able to find answers for themselves rather than to rely on someone.
I think they keyword there is eventually.

I fully agree with the above, I suspect those arguing for the importance of teachers probably do too. I also think the grounding, support, and assistance of people who have been in this game longer is crucial at the beginng to to get you to the stage where that eventually can eventuate.

Nobody is suggesting that one should submit to the authority of some guru like teacher. A teachers role is not to tell you what to think but to encourage, motivate, point out your blindspots, and suggest alternative approaches when you get stuck.

Nobody would become a lawyer or a doctor without first commiting to several years studying under those qualified to teach it, and yet it never ceases to amaze me that people think they can learn to undertake the path to awakening (a much more difficult undertaking) by just reading a book or browsing the internet.

It seems to me that someone not interested in commitment large amounts of time to retreat or to associating with those who may be more experienced on the path is really not very serious about the practice or is deluding themselves.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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ground
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by ground »

Is this debate about whether it is objectively true that generally a teacher is required (i.e. all persons do require a teacher) ?
Or is it about whether it is objectively true that a particular person whose name is not mentioned requires a teacher?
Or is it about whether one feels (i.e. it is subjectively true) that generally a teacher is required (i.e. all persons do require a teacher)?
Or is it about whether one feels (i.e. it is subjectively true) that a particular person whose name is not mentioned requires a teacher?
Or is it about whether one feels (i.e. it is subjectively true) that oneself requires a teacher?


Kind regards
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Yes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Kim OHara
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Re: does anyone here do kasina meditation?

Post by Kim OHara »

octathlon wrote:... I don't feel I made any progress with my mindfulness of breathing even after several months of almost-daily practice. I don't necessarily blame it on not having a teacher, though. I may be doing something wrong but as you say, it's pretty simple! It is more likely that I would need to increase session times or have patience and continue steadfastly, but I have just burned out on it I guess. It's funny, I actually did a lot better when I first started and it gradually went downhill from there.
That last sentence suggests to me that you experienced a very common phenomenon. Results in the beginning can be quite dramatic but the changes come more slowly once you've had that initial burst of discovery. It's not confined to meditation, either. It only takes an hour or two to go from a non-trumpet-player to a bad trumpet player, but years to go from bad to good. Ditto horse rider, knitter, etc.
And that period of reduced *apparent* progress is usually the killer. It's hard to stay motivated if you don't see improvement, if you're not motivated you don't put in the time and effort, and if you don't put in the time and effort you don't make *any* progress. Vicious circle!
Does any of that sound familiar?

:namaste:
Kim
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mikenz66
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by mikenz66 »

Alex123 wrote:Buddha has left His teaching to be used as a guide. I do not believe that suttas are written so poorly that they require lots of interpretation for practice. I think that the Buddha was the Best teacher and His instructions are written in the best form to be used individually.
Yes, I follow the Buddha's instructions, and there are a number of occasions in the Suttas where it is clear that there was a lot of personal instruction going on, not just by the Buddha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples — with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"
As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
It's good to read, but it's easy to ignore things that really challenge you. Reading a passage like:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 48#p141527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After only a year and a half of practice at Wat Ba Pong, one American [Jack Kornfield] asked and received permission [from Ajahn Chah] to travel and study with other Thai and Burmese teachers. A year or two later, he returned full of tales of his travels, of many months of extraordinary and intensive practice and of a number of remarkable experiences. . . . Then the Western monk went to the cottage of Achaan Sumedho, the senior Western disciple of Achaan Chah, and told all his stories and adventures, his new understandings and great insights into practice. Sumedho listened in silence and prepared afternoon tea from the roots of certain forest plants. When the stories were completed and the insights recounted, Sumedho smiled and said, "Ah, how wonderful. Something else to let go of."
Is a very different experience from when your teacher says it...

:anjali:
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PeterB
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by PeterB »

Aint that the truth... :smile: :anjali:
chownah
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by chownah »

I guess some people take things more seriously when a "teacher" says it.....and I guess that some people do not.....
When the Buddha was near death and the monks near him were concerned about who would be their teacher didn't the Buddha tell them that it would be the Dhamma?....he didn't tell them to go find another teacher person....I think that's how it went....but I could be wrong....
chownah
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Travis
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Travis »

Bhante Gunaratana learned meditation without a teacher...

PeterB
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by PeterB »

How many students does Bhante now have ? Hundreds at least.
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:But since you do not read Pali,
There are pali translation programs available. Sometimes I like to check various translations of certain pali key terms. Also there are few good translations available so one often can double check the translation of the sutta made by different monks.

tiltbillings wrote: you must rely on imperfect translations, and it is obvious just from this forum itself how wildly divergent interpretations of the same text can be.
This is why we should stick to what the sutta actually says rather than add on personal layers of meaning that can be different for different peопле. It is also possible that even if there is some room for interpretation, certain things may vary and be perfectly alright. As long as key teachings are fulfilled I don't believe that one must "sit in lotus facing east" or awakening won't happen, or that one must focus "on the nose rather than around the mouth" or Anapanasati won't be done, etc etc.

Just as I can make mistakes, so can the teacher. There is no guarantee that a teacher is much better than you. There are bad teachers who abuse their students, and there are well meaning ones who can make mistakes. Not everyone can get access to a teacher. Does this means that one shouldn't practice? no!

Is having a physical teacher a requirement for Aryanhood? No.
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